30: Ana Teresa Fernandez
Working on Borrando la Frontera (Erasing the Border)
“And she turned to me and said, ‘Absolutely not! I’m not sending my collectors into the Mission. That’s a dirty part of the city.’ ”
From the Episode
About Ana Teresa
Ana Teresa Fernandez, an artist who has been pushing boundaries and fusing performance and art for decades.
Born in Tampico, Mexico, Fernandez grew up in California and attended the San Francisco Art Institute, moving to the city in 2001 and beginning her relationship with its beautifully mercurial personality.
Ana is a force. She wrangles with issues others might find thorny and leans into them. Hard. And then, she sees something many others don’t. Then she extracts meaning. And then she puts that meaning out into the world for us to consume, helping us see through her eyes.
Her relationship with art – complex, constantly evolving, sometimes precarious and sometimes rock solid – mirrors her passions for tango and surfing – both forms of self expression rooted in motion, vulnerability, aggression, and a sprinkling of fear.
But then again, vulnerability and fear – those dark nooks and crannies where we hide – that is where the treasures are, that… is where we find the seeds of courage. And courage is what has helped Ana to create projects that examine the most important issues of our time, from immigration to politics to violence.
In one highly visible work, she erased the border between Tijuana & San Diego by painting a portion of the sky blue while wearing a tango dress and heels to create an illusion of a hole on the wall from afar.
Another time, she installed a 120 foot long table that spelled Truth across the lawn of the Trump winery, for all to see.
A student of linguistics, Ana speaks five languages. An artist of border erasure, she elevates the intersectionality of place, person, and politics to create a common human vernacular. Time-based actions and social gestures are her syntax. Land, history, gender, climate, and culture are her subjects. Performance, video, photography, painting, and sculpture become her dynamic tools of grammar. Through enacted narratives, she reveals all that too often gets lost in translation, becoming the literal embodiment of the stories that divide but also bind us as human beings sharing a planet of great fragility and beauty.
She calls her work Magical Non-fiction, explaining: “Where unimaginable conditions are the reality, I seek to portray dreamscapes of what’s possible. The courage to transform is up to us.”
Ana has created residencies and public work in Haiti, Brazil, Spain, South Africa, Cuba, Mexico & throughout the United States.
-
Max Chopovsky:
This is Moral of the Story, interesting people telling their favorite short stories and then breaking them down to understand what makes them so good. I'm your host, Max Chopovsky. Today's guest is Ana Teresa Fernandez, an artist who has been pushing boundaries and fusing performance and art for decades. Born in Tampico, Mexico, Fernandez grew up in California and attended the San Francisco Art Institute, moving to the city in 2001, and beginning her relationship with its beautifully mercurial personality. Ana is a force. with issues others might find thorny and leans into them hard. And then she sees something many others don't. Then she extracts meaning and then she puts that meaning out into the world for us to consume helping us see through her eyes. Her relationship with art, complex, constantly evolving, sometimes precarious and sometimes rock solid mirrors her passions for tango and surfing. Both forms of self-expression rooted in motion, vulnerability, aggression, and a sprinkling of fear. fear those dark nooks and crannies where we hide, that is where the treasures are. That is where we find the seeds of courage. And courage is what has helped Ana to create projects that examine the most important issues of our time, from immigration to politics, to violence. In one highly visible work, she erased the border between Tijuana and San Diego by painting a portion of the sky blue while wearing a tango dress and heels to create an illusion of a hole on the wall from afar. 20 foot long table that spelled truth across the lawn of the Trump winery for all to see a student of linguistics. Ana speaks five languages and artists of border erasure. She elevates the intersectionality of place, person, and politics to create a common human vernacular time-based actions and social gestures are her syntax land, history, gender, climate, and culture are her subjects. Performance, video, photography, painting, and sculpture become her dynamic tools of grammar. narratives, she reveals all that too often gets lost in translation, becoming the literal embodiment of the stories that divide us, but also bind us as human beings sharing a planet of great fragility and beauty. She calls her work magical nonfiction, explaining where unimaginable conditions are the reality. I seek to portray dreamscapes of what's possible. The courage to transform is up to us. Ana has created residencies and public work in Haiti, Brazil, Spain, South Africa, Cuba, Mexico, and throughout the United States. Sometimes she leads, sometimes she follows, but she always listens. And today it's time for her to talk. Ana, welcome to the show.
Ana Teresa:
Wow, thank you Max. That should be my epitaph.
Max Chopovsky:
You're the second person to tell me that. I'll take that as a compliment.
Ana Teresa:
Thanks for watching!
Max Chopovsky:
So before we get into it, is there anything that we should know if you want to set the stage?
Ana Teresa:
So I do, and I will get into that, but first before I actually set the stage, I just wAna ask you and also the listeners to think about the last time that someone used the statement, I am disappointed in you. And when was the last time you used it on somebody else? So as you stated in my introduction, I'm someone that's very much interested in language, and today it will be... very heavily focused on disappointment. And so I guess my story begins here with that word. I'm originally, as you said, from the Mexican family. We migrated to the US when I was 11 because our parents wanted a better life. I have three siblings. My three siblings were absolutely stellar students. And we have this phrase in Mexico called, that we say, pasar de panzazo, like to belly flop across the finish line. So I was a belly flopper in school. Like I had completely mediocre grades and it wasn't like one of those situations where people are like, oh, you're super brilliant and really smart and you're just bored. No, I tried incredibly hard. I tried, you know, all different ways to be able to be at the same level as my siblings and. Time and time again, I could just tell that I was both getting the feedback that I was being a disappointment, both audibly, palpably, psychologically. There was a school that all my siblings were able to get into that was kind of like the Mecca in Southern California where it is that we were living, where it was like an incredibly high, high, like. the pathway to like all the great colleges and all the rock star kids went there. All my siblings went. My parents insisted that I try to get in. I didn't. I tried again. I failed. The people at the school were like, listen, your kid is just not made for this school. So I went to a different high school, a different preparatory high school. I was okay, you know, like whatever. College came. I applied to all these colleges. I wasn't allowed into any of them. And so I went to what's it called, a community college. To which again, I mean, I was perfectly like happy to go. I thought it was an incredible experience. But there was always this like understanding that there was... almost like this invisible pack that I was in achieving something that everybody else around me wanted to. And if you think about the word disappointment, I want to just kind of come back to it really fast because it is actually someone that breaks an appointment. And by creating an appointment, two parties meet to discuss and like appoint something, right? And so I was like... I don't know that I've not been invited to this party, right? And like all these things were being, they were being placed upon me. So anyway, I was in committee to college, long story short, someone there saw that I was making artwork. I got recruited to the art institute, to the San Francisco Art Institute on like an 80% scholarship. All of a sudden, like I'm in San Francisco, boom, like. the doors open, you know, like my brain is like, this massive window is flung open and all this light and possibility starts pouring in. I go through, you know, two years of undergrad, get my BFA, the Art Institute was like, hey, you're made for this, you need to like, we'll give you a merit scholarship to stay and get your master's degree. And all this time, you know, on the other side, you know, my family was like, well, what are you going to do in life? Like, how are you going to support yourself? So there was always this kind of like ongoing discussion, right? Because it just, art wasn't really a viable source or a pathway that no one, especially coming from a migrant family,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
like if you know migrant families, it's always like very much guilt and shame driven. Like
Max Chopovsky:
year.
Ana Teresa:
I left everything for you so you can like what, you know? dot dot dot ellipse, you know? And so I get this merit scholarship, I do two years, and here I am trying to form my visual language and exercise those creative muscles. But here's the test, right? You get to the end of that, and it's almost like the finish line of education, it's like real life presents itself. So this is where the story begins, my story begins. I just wanted to preface it because up to that point, I was a bit of a lost child,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
like a lost soul, trying to find my way, grappled my way through what would be like myself presenting to the world. And thus far, I had almost always been, I had always been insufficient. And I have my graduate exhibition, 2006. I'm 25, 26 years old. I'm pretty young. We present our work that we have been working on. And all we really want is to be picked up by a gallery at this point. Like, there is less than 1% of graduates. That is the number that was present. Less than 1% of artists that graduate with their masters make it on to succeed as an artist. So here we are, 70 graduates just from one university, let alone we're like in the current of Stanford, California College of the Arts, USF, UCSF, like we're like competing for gallerists' attention to be able to get picked up by a gallerist. And so we have our exhibition. One of the top, the two oldest, the second oldest conceptual gallerist, Ruth Bronstain. sees my work. So she's like one of the top tiered artists, top tiered gallerists in San Francisco. She sees my work. She asks to speak with me. I take a meeting with her. She proposes that I do a solo exhibition with her gallery, which is like, I was like, Oh my God, this is it. Like, this is the moment I've been waiting for, you know, and
Max Chopovsky:
That's crazy.
Ana Teresa:
I'm super excited. I'm over the moon. I'm like, I got this, you know, like here
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
I come.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
And so I prefer for it. I'm like, I tell my family, my entire family flies out to San Francisco for this exhibition. And the exhibition opens. It's a huge success. We get, you know, I get written up in different magazines and we almost sell out the entire exhibition. Ruth is amazing. I'm just like, you know, like,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
This is it, you know?
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
But it's not. We still haven't talked about going steady. That's
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
the first. That's maybe second base. Perhaps third. But we haven't hit home run.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally.
Ana Teresa:
So at that point, she says, Ruth, who is at that point, when she was around 70, she says, Ana, let's go have lunch. And I was like, Oh my god, here it is, you know,
Max Chopovsky:
This is
Ana Teresa:
like,
Max Chopovsky:
where it happens.
Ana Teresa:
this is where the magic happens. And then I have a great relationship with her entire team. I love her gallery, you know, the director and the associate and the registrar. And she's this older Jewish woman with a really raspy voice. It sounds like she just smoked like three cigarettes and had two martinis, you know, she's kind of got that like cabaret old voice.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, yeah.
Ana Teresa:
The pompadour hair, the short pompadour hair,
Max Chopovsky:
Totally.
Ana Teresa:
which is like silver. She talks like a little bit raspy. And she asked me to meet her at the gallery. I meet her there. She picks me up. Lo and behold, she has this like white station wagon. This is like an equivalent of Subaru. You
Max Chopovsky:
Amazing.
Ana Teresa:
know, where the other gallerists have like a yellow, you know, decapotable, how do you say, like
Max Chopovsky:
Convertibles.
Ana Teresa:
a... convertible, you
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
know, like
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
yellow corvette, you know, but this is so she's like Okay, Ruth. Here we go in their station wagons. She takes
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
me out to this like French bistro in downtown So she sits me down. She's like she doesn't call me Ana Teresa because she can't pronounce it So she's like Ana, you know, we're really happy. We want to ask you to join the gallery It's been over 10 years since we've asked any new gallery any new artist to join the gallery mind you, Max, that her artists are mostly male and white. She has a couple of, she has like about three or four women who are all white, so I would kind of be like the woman of color in her gallery. And I was like, absolutely Ruth, you know, like my heart is swooning and like, just like over, I'm like, yes, like eating, like I don't remember, you know, just like.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. Angels are singing.
Ana Teresa:
Yeah, I was like, I'm so happy. I'm gonna come back to, I'm gonna be able to tell my family that this is... So she drives me back to the gallery. So that's where I had parked. And the gallery is located in an alleyway downtown, Clementina Street, which is a little bit like Skid Row. But inside, it's like the gallery is absolutely stunning, tall ceilings, cement floors. So we're in the alley. I get out of the car and I said, oh Ruth, by the way, the nonprofit, Galleria de la Raza, just asked me to be in their show and the painting that didn't sell, they wAna exhibit that and it's gonna be like, they're gonna have these world renowned Mexican artists. And she turned to look at me and she said, absolutely not. And I was like, excuse me? And she said, I'm not sending my collectors into the mission. That's a dirty part of the city. And I was like, I, Max, I was like, the only thing that came out of my mouth in that moment, I was like, you do realize I'm Mexican. She's like, you are not gonna be showing your work there. And I was like, she was, I mean, we were in the alley in Skid Row having this conversation about. me not being able to show my work as a Mexican artist in a Mexican nonprofit gallery,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
that was an incredible, important decision for me to be able to participate in. And I looked at her and I said, yes, I am. And she said, no, you're not. And I was like, I think that this is really important. She's like, You will not be showing with them. And I looked at her and like in that moment, Max, everything went silent. And I just remember. I said, I'm sorry, I can't work with you. And she's like, what a disappointment, came out of her mouth. She said, who do you think you are? You don't get to do this to me. You are just, you, you, you, you, and she wasn't even like formulating sentences.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
She was just like, and she was yelling at me in like her raspy old voice. And I was just like, I would, everything just turned quiet and still, and I was just like, I have to go. And I got into my car, I turned, like I started driving to my studio, and I just started bawling because I knew in that moment, there was no, that was it, you know? Like my opportunity to work with someone at that level, because... I had seen a side of them that I could not unsee
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
and that I had not had any room to like converse with. I was, like I said, I was 26 years old at the time. There was this part of me where I was like, did I, you know, like spinning in my head,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
driving to the studio, bawling, like, did I, should I have just like said, okay, I'm not showing, but then I excuse myself from Galleria La Raza. And I was like, no, this is who I am. There is no like halfway in, halfway out. And I was like, okay, well, maybe things will change. You know, maybe, but still I can't unsee and I can't unhear what I heard. And mind
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
you, this is a very different time. Like... We weren't talking about identity politics. We weren't talking about racism. We weren't talking about any of those issues. And I was like, well, maybe the people saw my work. I'll show with another gallery, a top tier gallery. Two hours into it, I get a phone call from another gallerist, Paula Anglem, who owns one of the other best galleries. I was like, oh.
Max Chopovsky:
Hehehe
Ana Teresa:
You know, I picked up the phone and I was like, what's going on? I was like, hello? And Paula was on the line and she said, I heard what happened.
Max Chopovsky:
Oh my God.
Ana Teresa:
And I was like, okay. She's like, I wish you all the best. Click.
Max Chopovsky:
What?
Ana Teresa:
I was being brownlisted.
Max Chopovsky:
Oh my
Ana Teresa:
And
Max Chopovsky:
god.
Ana Teresa:
so, yeah, all of a sudden I was like, not only did my life just kind of stop, I was going 100 miles an hour and I flew over a speed bump, a Mexican speed bump.
Max Chopovsky:
Wait, what's
Ana Teresa:
And
Max Chopovsky:
a Mexican speed bump?
Ana Teresa:
a Mexican speed bump, it's like a speed bump that's like a meter high, like in the middle of the highway. where you're going like 60 miles an hour and people tend to fly over them, you know?
Max Chopovsky:
Oh my god.
Ana Teresa:
And so there I was like, okay, not only was I, I no longer had a gallery representation, I had to call my family and tell them what happened, you know, and they're like, well, what did you say? What, you know, why didn't you? All these conversations that were incredibly. painful to have. But that's kind of where my story almost ends. In that moment, I had made one of the hardest decisions of my life. And I proceeded to have, I was part of the show with Galeria de la Raza, which was a huge success. Then from which the director of Galeria de la Raza was like, I would like to apply to one of the most prestigious grants within the Bay Area for you to do video work and tell stories through video work and performance. we ended up getting it. I just, one foot in front of the next, just kept going in the path with the same voice and determination. Nothing wavered in me. I didn't have a gallery representative, and I worked by myself pretty much for the next two years because no one would touch me. And my career continued. Where the story does kind of end for me is that a month ago, this is why I decided to tell this story, because a month ago I was at an opening with the gallery that I now work with. And an older woman came up to me and she said, oh, Ana, most people call me Ana Teresa, but Ana, nice to see you. And I was like, hello. She's like, I'm Ruth Bronstein's daughter. And I was like, oh, hello. And she said, oh, it's so great to see you. It's so amazing to see how fruitful your career has been. It's just been amazing to watch you grow and blossom. I did, however, thought it was so particular that you would decide to go off on your own. And I was, and I, in the middle of this opening with around a hundred people, I was like, excuse me? She said, yeah, I always thought it was strange that you just decided to go on your own and leave Ruth's gallery. And I was like, she doesn't know. She didn't know the truth. Her mother never told her the truth. And that to me was the moment where I realized that I don't know what Ruth told other people, but she wasn't able to articulate the truth. Whatever she revealed, it was not the truth of what had occurred because it was probably painful for her to accept.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
And I said to Ruth's daughter, I said, that is not what happened. And she said, she kind of was waiting for me to say, what, what did happen? And I said, it's not for me to tell.
Max Chopovsky:
Oh, yeah.
Ana Teresa:
I don't owe you any explanations and I'm not gonna tell you what your mother said. You know, your mother has passed and... And in a... This you know, 13, 14 years later, me getting the kind of the unveiling of like no one, no one around her knew the truth. And But that was, to me, coming back to the word disappointment, that gets thrown around so much, you know? It was like this moment that she decided to, what was okay for me to
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
be, to not be? You know, here I am, this artist talking about visibility. As a woman, as an immigrant. and she's telling me not to be visible in my own community. I was like, no one will ever tell me where to be visible, where to speak, where not to speak. And as
Max Chopovsky:
Totally.
Ana Teresa:
the moments before, you know, when I kept disappointing people, it was like, I just kept going and I kept going and no one gets to decide. what becomes of your career, not one person, because your talent is always yours.
Max Chopovsky:
Hell yes. Um, wow. So, okay. I have so many questions. First of all, that is an incredible sense of, um, courage and confidence. And you know, I had a friend that said that, um, He was talking about companies, company values. He runs a company that has a very successful culture. And he said, company values only start to matter when they start to cost you money. And the way that I apply that to your story is people can say that they have integrity, that they have the right North star. None of it means anything until they have to stake something of value on that belief. And so the fact that at 26. You were able to say, I mean, to you, being a part of Ruth's gallery was kind of everything, right? It was the culmination of undergrad graduate school. If you had 70 people in your class, right, that's less than one person. That's one person. One percent, one person, point
Ana Teresa:
Well,
Max Chopovsky:
seven.
Ana Teresa:
70% I mean 70 students just within the Art Institute, mind
Max Chopovsky:
Right.
Ana Teresa:
you, there's about 400 people that graduate in the Bay Area
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
who are all seeking like these very coveted spots. But to what you're saying Max, it was there. I had it in my hand. I had the fruit of my labor and I had been a disappointment all. And the reason why I tell the, you know, set the story, okay, let me tell you, I've been disappointing everyone for the first 25 years of my life. This is the one moment, not only am I holding the possibility of success, but it is the one moment that I haven't been a disappointment, you know? And I had to let it go. And because I had flexed the muscle of like being, I'm like, okay, well, one more time, I get to be a disappointment. Like it didn't, it wasn't that burden. That word to me had kind of lost or I think I, I, let me tell you something interesting. Um, cause I was, I did some, uh, digging of the etymology of that word. Like I said, it's two people set an appointment, the person that doesn't meet that appointment is the disappointer. So the antonym, or the opposite of disappointment, is satisfaction. To satisfy someone.
Max Chopovsky:
Interesting.
Ana Teresa:
People don't often use the word satisfy in professional settings. You know? They don't ever use it. But the word disappointment, I get that word thrown at me probably like three or four times a year in a professional setting. And so to me, it is an uncalibrated expectation to which I have no responsibility. That someone is deciding to throw that accountability over to my side of the fence and be like, here, you be accountable.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
That is what disappointment is. And people, if you're gonna be really professional, don't actually use that word. They say, I'm really like, you know, I'm angry that you didn't agree with me. I am, you know, frustrated. If you want to use emotions, use emotions. But disappointment,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
it's like, wait,
Max Chopovsky:
Well, I think...
Ana Teresa:
when did I like come to this? You know,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
I wasn't part of this discussion of like creating an appointment.
Max Chopovsky:
Well, I think disappointment is a function of expectations.
Ana Teresa:
Absolutely.
Max Chopovsky:
And so your parents are allowed to have their expectations of you, even though in your mind they're misguided, but they're allowed to have expectations. Who the hell is Ruth to have expectations of you? Right, like, and not just that, but to have an expectation that you would go against. something that is so meaningful to you, which is this gallery that is nonprofit and it, it sort of supports your roots and your heritage. It's her expectations were off, right? Like that's the, and, and, but I think it's a function of her self-confidence. She's like, I can have whatever expectations I want of you. And you're going to do whatever I say. And you were like, no, I'm not. And that's the part that I find super powerful. Now, the question I have is when you call your parents, I know that in your mind you were envisioning an entirely different flavor of phone call. So when you call them, did they support your decision?
Ana Teresa:
Yes, and it was met but there was always some underlying like what did you do? You know, like what did you do? Like we know you what did you do to
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
fuck this up? Sorry
Max Chopovsky:
Yep.
Ana Teresa:
I don't know if I can't say the word
Max Chopovsky:
You absolutely, you can say whatever you want. Yep.
Ana Teresa:
And I think that and that's the thing I think when when people have uncalibrate a uncalibrated expectations privilege and assumption. For me that moment that Ruth was like, shh. There was a moment in that discussion when we were in that alleyway, like I said in Skidrow,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
and she was calling the mission dirty, which is like
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
what Trump, you know, like the type
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
of Trump rhetoric. And mind you, it's a complicated situation because she's not, you know, she's not that moment. She's a wonderful, very loved individual in the community. I'm sure if people hear this from the Bay Area, they're going to be absolutely shocked and they're going to be like, but Ruth is amazing. Absolutely. She is amazing. But she also had this side to her, this side in which she thought she was entitled to limit me and to be able to articulate about a district of the Bay Area that's very loved, that's part of the fabric
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
of San Francisco. Folklore that's flavorful, that I'm really proud of. And for you to dismiss it and tell me that you're your collectors, you're not going to send your collectors there because it's dirty and it's undermining your representation. I mean, it's hurtful times 10 on so many levels. It's disrespectful. It's hurtful. It's racist.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
And it's who I am. I mean.
Max Chopovsky:
And she knew that.
Ana Teresa:
And
Max Chopovsky:
She
Ana Teresa:
she
Max Chopovsky:
had
Ana Teresa:
knew
Max Chopovsky:
to
Ana Teresa:
that!
Max Chopovsky:
know that.
Ana Teresa:
Yes! Because my work is about that, you know? And it's like this like, oh let's keep everything very tidily, tidily separated. Like, oh you can be Mexican in my gallery, but don't be Mexican outside the gallery. You know what I mean? Like,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
um...
Max Chopovsky:
She was like, it was like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde moment.
Ana Teresa:
Yeah!
Max Chopovsky:
All of a sudden she just turned into this person and you were like, wait, I thought the angels were singing. Like, where did this come from?
Ana Teresa:
All in less than an hour max. I mean talk about, and I've never shared this story before because there wasn't, there wasn't room for that story to exist back then. The, the language wasn't there, the rhetoric, the space wasn't there. People probably wouldn't believe me, you know? Now I think, now that I have decades and that I've worked with like probably every institution here in the People know me, they trust me, they value what I bring. But back then, and had I said that, oh, by the way, she was brownlisting me too and talking to other gallerists to not pick me up. I mean, check my phone records. I have a phone call from Paula like two hours after I met with Ruth. And the thing that really gets me is that she did make an ultimatum for me. And I was like, that to me is like the sign of like the worst. the worst way you can enter any relationship into.
Max Chopovsky:
That's because she thought that she had all the leverage.
Ana Teresa:
Absolutely.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. She was like, there's no way this girl would ever, I mean, yeah, she wants to be in the Southern gallery, but I am her only chance. So what's interesting to me is there are a couple of musicians that come to mind that did not sign with record labels. And whether it's because they didn't believe in their music or they were not in that 1% or their equivalent, those two musicians are Macklemore and Chance the Rapper. And clearly they've gone on to have fantastic careers. And now the labels are coming to them and they're like, I'm good. I'm good. Thanks. I don't want you to own a hundred percent of my masters. Right. It's your story resonates with me on multiple levels because I'm also an immigrant and the shame and guilt that exists in immigrant families
Ana Teresa:
Ugh.
Max Chopovsky:
is like off the charts. And both the former Soviet Union and the Jewish guilt, which are compounded for me are
Ana Teresa:
I'm going to go ahead and turn it off.
Max Chopovsky:
like this, like what your parents told you, which was, Oh, she, she, um, she said this to you. Ruth said this to you that she gave you this ultimatum, but like, what did you do? Like contributory negligence on your part. This couldn't, this, you had to play a role. And you're just like, can you just please, for once in my life believe that I actually stood up for the right thing. And I was given an ultimatum, which did not align with my values. And I did the right thing. You were like, like, how did you feel when you hung up the phone with your parents after probably hearing again that you're a disappointment and on the one hand, having this decision that you made that you were like, This was, I can't believe I did that. I feel like I'm going to be proud of it down the road. At the same time, my parents just told me I'd made the right decision, but also they were like, yeah, but you probably, you
Ana Teresa:
You
Max Chopovsky:
probably
Ana Teresa:
were probably
Max Chopovsky:
did something.
Ana Teresa:
at fault too.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. It's like, how did you feel when you hung up the phone with your parents?
Ana Teresa:
Oh, I mean, devastated. I think the part of like I said, having it in my hand and having to relinquish it and let it go, that burnt, you know? Like
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
that was, that burned and then on top of it, how do you say, like the aftershocks,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
it was amplified further by their response. And I think that now, Now if I'm not disappointing someone, I know I'm not doing my job.
Max Chopovsky:
Right.
Ana Teresa:
For me it's like becomes it almost has become a bit of a I mean but now I know but back then as a like I said as a young immigrant woman that had no one to look up to had no guidance had was literally like walking through the city like trying to read Braille signs
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
because there was no path. there was absolutely no path I could follow of somebody else. And here I was, this artist who was on their own, working
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
with nonprofits and doing all these different engagements. And I think that that's one of the things that I, when now I'm at the age where all my friends have kids and they're like, oh, but so-and-so is not from this percentile. And so, you know, my kid is not, and I'm like, Let them be disappointments. Like, look at me, you know? Like,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
let them, let them not be part of what is the, the status quo, because it's a beautiful thing to be the black sheep, to be the outsider, to be the rule breaker. There's so many more ways to navigate and exist. That's not within the status quo. That is not within the margins of correction of what people decide because again the appointments are made by like these Ether by the ether of people's expectations and it's like But whose expectation is it? Have you asked your kid if they really want to be doing that
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
because I was never asked I Was disappointing people left and right with stuff that I didn't want to be doing
Max Chopovsky:
Your parents were like, and my parents are exactly the same way, even if it wasn't said, it always hung in the air. Do you know what we had to give up?
Ana Teresa:
Yes!
Max Chopovsky:
We gave up our life for you. We gave up our lives for you and you're gonna squander that. And I was like, I don't want to be a lawyer. I don't want to be a doctor. I don't want to be an engineer. And they're like, well, then why did we move to this land of opportunity for you to do? What? Like real estate video production? What the hell is that? And I was like, this is what I want to do. And so it's funny. Like I'll say to myself, I remember saying to us, I remember saying to them, if you won't believe in me, I will believe in myself with the power of three people
Ana Teresa:
Mmm.
Max Chopovsky:
because I had no choice, right? Like I was broke, I had my back against the wall and it was like... I didn't, they're not going to like hearing this, but I did not succeed because of them. I succeeded in spite of them.
Ana Teresa:
Yup.
Max Chopovsky:
And the truth is that I can't put myself in their shoes because that would be like moving to another country for me right now with, with young kids. And, and maybe I won't understand my parents, uh, unless my family moves to a different country. But. I do try to focus with my kids on saying to them, I don't really care what you do as long as you work your ass off and as long as you really enjoy it. Now, I can say that all day, but if they decide to do something that to me is... a waste of their talents, maybe I'll revert to my parents. I don't know. But at least I'll be able to remind myself, oh, this is how they're gonna feel if I tell them this.
Ana Teresa:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
Because my parents would be like, you're better than this. That's what they'd say, they're like, you're better than this. Like, why are you doing video? You're better than this. But the corollary of that, the flip side of that coin is, what you're doing is beneath you. And it's beneath our expectations of you,
Ana Teresa:
Mm-hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
right? So, it's... Um, it's incredible. Have you told this story to your parents? I mean, have you, have you walked them through kind of the whole narrative and where it ends now? Like have you gotten their thoughts on how they feel about it now that the story kind of ended well?
Ana Teresa:
No, no, we don't speak.
Max Chopovsky:
Ah, okay, okay. Yeah, that's unfortunate, that's sad. But let me ask you this. Let me ask you this. What is the moral of that story for you?
Ana Teresa:
Well, I think you'll like this because the other day I was telling my husband, David, I said, oh yeah, I'm going to get interviewed by Max who does this podcast that's the point of the moral. And he's like, do you mean the moral of the story? And I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The point of the moral.
Max Chopovsky:
What is the point of the moral?
Ana Teresa:
I'm always flipping things around. So I think that... There is no, the part of the story that I really like is that there was no like, like happy conclusion, you know,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
like this was, it wasn't like a clean beginning. There was definitely the climax in that crux where my life really changed. And it's like. To me, there was the unraveling of the 12, 13 years until I met the daughter that revealed some aspect of the truth, which was shame. There was like
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
some shame in there. So I know that Ruth wasn't proud of what she did.
Max Chopovsky:
Right?
Ana Teresa:
And I was. Be
Max Chopovsky:
Right.
Ana Teresa:
underneath all the shame and guilt that was thrown my way. I knew that that... created an anchor for me moving forward, knowing that I could survive disappointments like that, quote unquote disappointments, like
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
that I could survive disappointing people at that level and that I would be okay and that my path would just lead keeping abstract and not linear and...
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
and that I was strong enough, like you said, not because of people, but in spite of people. And that if the only person that can hold themselves accountable for the earnestness and the forthrightness in my decisions is me, because there was nobody else in that alley that day. I could have kept it to myself, I could have played both sides, but I wouldn't have been able to sleep with myself. night.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally.
Ana Teresa:
And I wanted to always, always, always follow through with what I felt was the right decision. That was the earnest decision that felt the strongest in the sense of courage, you know? That proved to me not in that moment, not six months from that moment, but it built something in me that created resistance, that created that fortitude, that
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
has more through time allowed me to make those decisions again and again and again. But it was in that moment that I was like, that was the real test.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, that was like surfing a 50 foot wave and knowing that all the rest of them are going to be smaller. So who cares? Right? Like I did the hard one and I survived.
Ana Teresa:
Yeah, and like I said, it gives you fortitude to when stuff comes up and you say like, actually no, I don't believe in that. And people are like, well I'm disappointed and... Like, okay, so you're disappointed. I'm not. I'm thrilled, you know? I'm thrilled. And if you can't proceed with me through this path in this way, okay, that's okay. We don't have to agree on everything.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally. And there is a really good muscle to have worked. There is, so Malcolm Gladwell has this concept of, oh what's the word, I'm blanking on it. It's basically, what does he call it? It's basically the concept of agreeability. That's what it is. It's
Ana Teresa:
Mm-hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
being agreeable. And the way he defines it is... If conversation is flowing and everybody is, you know, everything is going well, sort of the status quo, you might agree with something that you don't necessarily agree with for the sake of the status quo. Because if you sort of say, no, I don't actually agree with you, then it's like a, uh, needle scratch on the record and like of the social setting. Right. And he's like, actually having a high agreeableness factor, however he puts it, is it's nice for keeping the status quo in social circumstances, but it actually means you have to swallow a lot of things that you
Ana Teresa:
Mm-hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
normally, that you wouldn't agree with. And. There are times when I'm like that too, when I'm like, you know, I'm a people pleaser because we're immigrants and I kind of grew up not really fitting in. And so that's where I got that. And it took many years for me to say, for me to get to the point where I can say. things are going great, you know, I get it. We're good. But actually I don't agree with what you're doing. Like I'm always, I'm always, I always want to sort of get along with people. Right. And I remember we were flying through New York, um, for a video shoot, and I had a really expensive camera and I started talking to the TSA agent and we were just chit chatting, bullshitting, like everything was going great. And then she's like, you're going to need to put that camera through the X-ray. And I'm like, it's a $40,000 camera. I really don't want to take it out of the case. And I don't need to put it through the X-ray machine because I have TSA Like literally we had just been joking around while the line was stopped. And I thought we had built some great rapport. She's like, I don't care. You have to send it through the X-ray machine. And I sent it through the X-ray machine because I was like, they're gonna make me do it anyway. It's not what am I gonna do? Like yell at her and she's gonna be like, okay, okay, you're right. We made some jokes. So you're my friend now. So I'm gonna bend the rules for you. But at the same time, I was like, I remember walking to the gate, nothing happened to the camera, but I remember walking to the gate and being like, damn, I kind of feel like. I didn't stand up for what I believe was right because, and because in practicality, I mean that I didn't have to send the camera through the x-ray machine. And I was like, that's the agreeableness in me, you know, really
Ana Teresa:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
trying to sort of smooth things over. And I was way older than 26. And the fact that you did that at 26 really says something about whether or not you like it, your parents besides. calling you a disappointment so many times instilled in you the seeds at the very least of integrity, which, uh, which manifested itself when you were in that alley with Ruth and you were like, I'm about to write off into the sunset. And then she said that you were like, no, no, no, I don't, I actually don't, I don't think this is a good fit. So let me ask you this. Why did you choose to tell this story after all this time today?
Ana Teresa:
One, it's because I had never given it oxygen. It's something that, even though it's been an immense part of, you know, it was a short, like it was like a month, right? Like the
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
whole exchange happened in about, and then that little exchange happened in about 20 minutes outside in the alleyway.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
But I think it really... I think it chiseled me in a way that nothing else could have because it really showed me that my talent was mine, that it didn't belong to somebody else, no matter how much power they had. And so I think it... It showed me that my power belongs to me. And no matter who I work with, who I choose to share it with, and that people come and go, but I think that I, part of me felt shame for what happened
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
in that moment and not
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
knowing how to... I mean, like I said, I had no idea what narrative she threw out into the world. She threw out some narrative, obviously, because I was getting both a phone call and then 14 years later, her daughter approached me. But the fact that her daughter approached me a month ago, literally a month ago, it just resurfaced all these emotions and issues inside of me being like,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
oh my goodness. There has been this false narrative for the last 14 years floating around by other people about me. And
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
I would like to clear my name and I would like to tell my story and what actually happened and how I, I not only survived as an quote unquote artist, but as a woman of color in a mostly
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
white male landscape. You
Max Chopovsky:
and
Ana Teresa:
know
Max Chopovsky:
you can
Ana Teresa:
that.
Max Chopovsky:
stand proudly.
Ana Teresa:
Yeah, and so when you offered, and I don't often get asked like, hey, what story would you tell that you don't usually tell? It's like, tell me this thing, you know, like we want, we want the hits. So I have my hits repertoire that I go to and, um, you know, and then I try and tell differently every time, but I sat for a long time of like, how much of myself should I reveal? Like, do I reveal from the... from the beginning, what led me to be able to be that person standing in the alleyway, which was like, okay, I have to go into my past and my family, which I don't really want to divulge, but there is no understanding that moment without it. And so it was, yeah, like it was. very, very scary for me to tell this story on many fronts. And to know that I'm gonna probably be judged if people hear this, that, you know, know Ruth in a certain way, which I know most people do.
Max Chopovsky:
I'm so glad you did it. Let me ask you this if Ruth and I'm assuming she had passed away
Ana Teresa:
She's passed away, I think, 2016.
Max Chopovsky:
So what was your rationale for not telling her daughter the truth, knowing that Ruth wasn't going to be able to do it?
Ana Teresa:
I think... I didn't want to be the person that told her that painful story of her mother. Like I felt bad that it wasn't the setting. We were in a, I mean, I hadn't, I don't know her. I don't, we were, I was surrounded by a hundred people. Like it was this moment. She kind of caught me off
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
guard. And even though I, it wasn't about, it had nothing to do with me pleasing her. but I felt like... had I felt she earnestly wanted to know, I would have told her, but it was more like small talk. And I was like, hmm, I don't know that she would be, she would be open to hearing the truth. And I just didn't want to get into a moment where I'm either just, you know, debating or fighting with someone in public, where I'm like, no, this is, you had your relationship with your mother. I had my relationship with your mother. So,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
I, you know. I just, it's not, I don't need to prove a point right now with you. Um, it's not going to do me anything, nor
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
I just did, yeah, I didn't think it was the, the place, the safe, it wasn't safe for
Max Chopovsky:
I hear
Ana Teresa:
either
Max Chopovsky:
you.
Ana Teresa:
her or me. Let's just say that.
Max Chopovsky:
Can I, I don't usually do this, but can I pause because we started a little late? I just
Ana Teresa:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
have to do something real quick. Would you give
Ana Teresa:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
me like two minutes? Okay,
Ana Teresa:
Yeah, of course.
Max Chopovsky:
give me two minutes.
Ana Teresa:
Welcome back.
Max Chopovsky:
I'm very sorry. Literally on Friday, I got a call that was like, we were, we were, um, looking to get our back patio redone. And I got a call from the landscaper on Friday. I was like, we're ready to start on Monday. And I was like, this Friday afternoon, like, what the fuck? I thought we're going to have a little more notice. He's like, yeah, we're good to go. And I was like, Okay. So this entire time, I don't know if you've been hearing this, but like they're literally digging up my patio. It is a war zone and my wife needed to go get our, uh, one of our kids. And so she's like, I have to go and she can't pull out the car. So I was like, fuck it. I'll do it. No problem. But that's why I had to run. I, I, this
Ana Teresa:
No
Max Chopovsky:
is
Ana Teresa:
worries, no worries,
Max Chopovsky:
the
Ana Teresa:
it's
Max Chopovsky:
first
Ana Teresa:
okay.
Max Chopovsky:
time I've done this. Uh, so, so let me ask you this then, um, You haven't told this story really very much. Uh, but, but what do you think makes the story work structurally? Like what makes it a compelling, interesting story?
Ana Teresa:
I think that there's the underdog,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah?
Ana Teresa:
me,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
from a small town, standing up to the big, fancy gallerists, and
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
standing up for also the nonprofit,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
her community. And I've kind of been... representative of my community through my work for for quite a bit here in the Bay Area. And so it's, I think that coming out ahead in the end, there's definitely like a victoriousness afterwards, but it's not so what I like about it that in the moment nothing really like what we thought. Oh shit, sorry. What I thought was what I really wanted was what I had to let go. So there's the irony, I think there's the twist, the kind of the sweet and sour, like the moment, it all happened in such close proximity, like the getting what I've been hoping for being the disappointment being the disappointment, and then finally like coming up at top, and then just kidding, no you don't. you know, but then coming up on top again. So.
Max Chopovsky:
And you would have been a disappointment to yourself had you agreed to stay with Ruth.
Ana Teresa:
Exactly. The only person that I have an agreement with is myself constantly. That is the only person I ever feel disappointed with. I don't feel disappointed with other people. And this is, I asked my husband this the other day. I said, Amor, like, I want you to think about this because I'm talking about this with Max on his podcast. When was the last time I ever use the word disappointment with you. And he's like, oh, and I was like, no, no, no, no, don't tell me right now. Just think about it. I was in the studio. When I get home, I would like for you to tell me. And he said, you've used it once in the five years we've been together. He said, you've used it once. And it was to warn me that we will disappoint each other in our being together and that is okay. Like we need the room to grow. He said, but however, he's like, you've never once have said that I've disappointed you. You get angry at me, you get frustrated with me, but I've never heard you use the word disappointment with me. And I was like, oh, okay. I kind of patted
Max Chopovsky:
That's a
Ana Teresa:
myself
Max Chopovsky:
win.
Ana Teresa:
on the back on that one.
Max Chopovsky:
Hell yeah. Hell yeah. So what I find so interesting about you is that you are a storyteller that uses multiple media to tell your stories. You just told me one, but you also tell stories using visual media and auditory media. What is your medium of choice? If you were, I know it's like picking a favorite child. I know it's hard, but if you were to choose one, what would it be?
Ana Teresa:
Well... I love painting. I love painting because it suspends you. I think painting does this thing that photography, for example, it's just a second. It's a frame, it's a second.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
And I know that painting is still, obviously, but there's something about it being in oil, which is a living, breathing organism that feels almost like someone pressed the pause button. and you're kind of suspended and it feels like, which is why I tend to use imagery that feels very much like something's about to happen or it just happened. And so there's this feeling of like, like movement within the brush strokes, within the colors, the temperatures. And then I also have to say sound. Sound is a close second to me because sound, there's something so seductive about sound. And I love, For example, with podcasts and storytellers that I cannot see them. Because it just makes my imagination go 100 miles an hour.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Ana Teresa:
I love listening to stories. I love listening to sounds. I just came back from Costa Rica. And it is a wild soundtrack. Like the birds, the monkeys, the roads, everything is just like, the sounds, it's like. It's like amped up to a hundred and you're just like wow, it's incredible how much urban noise detracts us from really experiencing Life and nature, you know
Max Chopovsky:
Totally.
Ana Teresa:
because sounds are so seductive
Max Chopovsky:
closing your eyes is underrated
Ana Teresa:
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
because just as you said, when you take a story in with just sound, it makes you a participant in the storytelling. Because you can imagine.
Ana Teresa:
Mm-hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
what the sounds are telling you, whether you're listening to a podcast and you create your own story in your mind or you're sitting in Costa Rica and you're imagining what's going on around you. And plus, it makes you a more acute listener when you block out the other senses. So I will allow it. I will allow two competing media because you made the case for both of them.
Ana Teresa:
With your polar opposites, but you know, okay, one's visual, one's audio, but I, if I had to choose, I would say I would go to south. If I could, if I could, even though
Max Chopovsky:
sound.
Ana Teresa:
I'm not at experiencing it, let me just say not making it. I like making more with painting, but if I, if you were, you gave me just one choice to experience it would be through south.
Max Chopovsky:
Got it, okay. What do you think makes for a good story?
Ana Teresa:
I have to say that I love... pulling the rug from expectations. Because I think that there's these certain narrations that we're privy to, that we're accustomed to. Fables, myths, I love when you switch and you change the perspective on something and you give it a twist that is completely, that just. makes you have that what I call the seismic seconds where it just like shifts your entire being into being like, Oh, wow, I've never, okay. I didn't realize that I've never thought of that in those, those stories are the ones that just will forever stick with me.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
And all you have to do is twist the perspective, just like give it 30 more degrees or, you know, just give it a different, change the gender, change the rate. I mean, it's just like you just change it a little bit and you're like, oh my God, it's a completely different universe that just unraveled.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally, totally. You don't even have to tell an entirely new story. You could just tweak one component.
Ana Teresa:
Mm-hmm.
Max Chopovsky:
Does every story have to have a moral?
Ana Teresa:
No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think, um, but I think the ones, I like the ones that make me think. I like the ones that challenge me and that don't, don't really have like clear paths, you know, where something, something really, um, surprises me. But
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
I'm, I'm a, I'm a fool for funny stories. So I love listening to funny stories.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, it's like an escape.
Ana Teresa:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
So last question, I'm going to tweak this one a little bit.
Ana Teresa:
Okay.
Max Chopovsky:
What would you say to your 26 year old self?
Ana Teresa:
Right on, sister! I
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Ana Teresa:
mean, I... I... it's... It's more like what my 26-year-old self would say to me right now. Which would be like, you will be okay. You will experience the unimaginable. Just hold on tight. You know? It's like...
Max Chopovsky:
I've asked this question a lot of times. You're the only person so far that has flipped it and said, what would my 26 year old self, my younger self say to me now? I will say this. The answer of it's going to be okay is such a common refrain. And I think that that's because being unsure of your path. And having that uncertainty is also a very common refrain, even for those people that seem from the outside to have it all figured out. So it's going to be okay. And I love the addition of just hang on because it is a wild ride. It's a wild ride. Um, anything else that you want to mention about storytelling before we wrap?
Ana Teresa:
I just want to say that I've enjoyed listening to the stories on your podcast.
Max Chopovsky:
Thank you.
Ana Teresa:
Thank you for your storytelling and for sticking to doing what you were meant to do, which is share other people's stories as well as your own.
Max Chopovsky:
I appreciate that. I am but a humble conduit and I'm just fortunate enough to have such wonderful storytellers on the show. So thank you for sharing your story. Uh, Ana Teresa Fernandez. I appreciate you. I know that it took guts and vulnerability. I personally understand what it feels like to share that kind of story. So thank you very much. Uh, that does it for us. Thank you for listening for show notes and more head over to mass pod.org. You can find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, wherever you get your podcast on. This was moral of the story. I'm Max Chopovsky. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next time.