29: Doniece Sandoval
Kena Frank Photography / Courtesy Lava Mae
“And in that moment I thought about what it must be like to live in the streets. Where would you go for a shower?”
About Doniece
Doniece Sandoval considers her decades long career to be a tapestry of unique experiences in far flung fields from tech and fashion to sports and the arts. Whether crafting a messaging strategy for a database company, building a brand for a Spanish fashion line, or coordinating engagement for the Olympic Torch Relay, she’s applied her creative lens, ingenuity, and ability to make things happen while leveraging her marketing, branding, and PR expertise to elevate the work.
This is all impressive, but what set her on a path to make a real impact was one sentence: “Welcome to the land of broken dreams.” These were the words uttered by the cabbie taking her through San Francisco’s tenderloin neighborhood one day in early 2013.
As Doniece looked out the window at the many homeless people living on the streets, she realized that none of them, when they were kids, thought that this is where they would end up.
And the problem is massive. Close to 2.5% of San Francisco’s population experienced homelessness in 2022 – that’s close to 20,000 people.
Doniece knew that she had to do something. And soon enough, she knew what that something would be. Shortly after that fateful drive, she encountered a homeless woman on the street. The woman was crying that she would never be clean again, and suddenly, Doniece had a crystal clear understanding of her mission.
She held on to that woman’s feeling of despair and got to work, crowdfunding $75,000 to buy two decommissioned municipal buses and retrofit them as mobile shower and bathroom facilities for the homeless.
And thus, Lava Mae was born and began its mission of ensuring that unhoused doesn’t have to mean unclean. But what Doniece and her team really provided to these marginalized people was dignity – that most basic and critical feeling of being human, being seen, being worthy of respect.
What she probably didn’t realize was the ripple effect her efforts would cause, touching the lives of 45,000 unhoused Californians and inspiring 256 similar programs around the globe. To meet the exploding demand, in 2020, Lava Mae rebranded as LavaMaeX and redefined its mission as a nonprofit accelerator focused on teaching more communities around the world to launch and sustain their own programs. She credits the organization’s marketing/PR prowess for generating international visibility and global demand for its programs that are rooted in Radical Hospitality – a philosophy of treating people with extraordinary care.
Doniece’s awards and honors include becoming an Impact Lab Fellow at the University of Texas Austin, Social Entrepreneur in Residence at Stanford University’s Haas Center, University of San Francisco Honorary Degree recipient, Nonprofit HR’s Women to Watch (2019), 2017 CNN Hero, 2017 James Irvine Foundation Leadership award, CA Assembly Woman of the Year (2017), and the KIND Foundation’s KIND People Award (2016).
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Max Chopovsky:
This is Moral of the Story. Interesting people telling their favorite short stories and then breaking them down to understand what makes them so good. I'm your host, Max Chopovsky. Today's guest is Doniece Sandoval, who considers her decades long career to be a tapestry of unique experiences in far flung fields from tech and fashion to sports and the arts. Whether crafting a messaging strategy for a database company, building a brand for a Spanish fashion line, or coordinating engagement for the Olympic Torch Relay, she's applied her creative lens, ingenuity, and ability to make things happen while leveraging her marketing, branding, and PR expertise to elevate the work. This is all impressive, but what set her on a path to make a real impact was one sentence. Welcome to the land of broken dreams. These were the words uttered by the cabbie taking her through San Francisco's Tenderloin neighborhood one day in early 2013. As Denise looked out the window at the many homeless people living on the streets, she realized that none of them, when they were kids, thought that this is where they would end up. And the problem is massive. Close to two and a half percent of San Francisco's population experienced homelessness in 2020. That's close to 20,000 people. Denise knew that she had to do something, and soon enough, she knew what that something would be. Shortly after that fateful drive, she encountered a homeless woman on the street. The woman was crying that she would never be clean again, and suddenly, Denise had a crystal clear understanding of her mission. She held onto that woman's feeling of despair and got to work, crowdfunding $75,000 to buy two decommissioned municipal buses and retrofit them as mobile shower and bathroom facilities for the homeless. Plus, Lava May was born and began its mission of ensuring that unhoused doesn't have to mean unclean. But what Denise and her team really provided to these marginalized people was dignity. That most basic and critical feeling of being human, being seen, being worthy of respect. What she probably didn't realize was the ripple effect that her efforts would cause, touching the lives of some 45,000 unhoused Californians and inspiring 256 programs around the globe. as LavaMaeX and redefined its mission as a nonprofit accelerator focused on teaching more communities around the world to launch and sustain their own programs. She credits the organization's marketing and PR prowess for generating international visibility and global demand for its programs that are rooted in radical hospitality, a philosophy of treating people with extraordinary care. Denise's awards and honors include becoming an impact lab fellow at the university of Texas, Austin, social entrepreneur and residents at Stanford universities, Haas center, university of San Francisco, honorary degree recipient, nonprofit HR women to watch 2017 CNN hero 2017 James Irvine foundation leadership award, CA assembly woman of the year and the kind foundations, kind people award. She's currently in the lab experimenting with a few ideas that address more social entrepreneurs seeking to avoid burnout while driving impact. Doniece, it is an honor to have you on the show.
Doniece Sandoval:
Thank you, Max. That was a lot. Thank
Max Chopovsky:
Well, that's because you've done a lot.
Doniece Sandoval:
you, Max.
Max Chopovsky:
So set the stage. Is there anything that we should know about your story before we get into it?
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes, I want to take you more deeply into kind of the genesis of the whole idea for Lava May and how it came together because I think it's incredibly powerful for a couple of reasons, which I can share with you after I share the story.
Max Chopovsky:
Fabulous. Well, let's get into it.
Doniece Sandoval:
Okay,
Max Chopovsky:
Tell me a story.
Doniece Sandoval:
so it's San Francisco. It's the year 2011. And this is a few years after our great recession, but the city is booming. And primarily because tech industries have either relocated into the city or opened headquarters there, shifted them, to meet the needs of their employees who want to be in a more vibrant location other than Silicon Valley. And so things are good for a lot of people, but not for everyone. So homelessness is growing. I'm walking on the streets in an area of the city called the Design Center district. And I pass a young woman that you mentioned earlier. And as I'm passing her, she is whispering to herself over and over again that she would never be clean. And in that moment, I thought. about what it must be like to live on the streets and where would you go for a shower? Where would you go to have a moment to use a private toilet? And that thought stayed with me all day. So I went home that night and I hopped on the computer and I did the research. The city of San Francisco has a wealth of information online about what services are available to people who are unhoused. And as I made my way through, I started counting the number of showers and toilets and I got to 16. 16 for over 7,000 officially unhoused people who lived in San Francisco. That stunned me. That's a number you would expect somewhere else, not in one of the most affluent and thriving cities in the world. And so I thought to myself, maybe this is something I can help figure out. I didn't know how I would address this problem. but I'm an ideas person. So I just wanted to plant it in the back of my head and give it time to germinate. And over time, I realized that there were commercial shower trailers that I could probably look at purchasing, but I am a marketing and branding person. And what I know is that you have to have a great story to raise the money needed to do something like this and to galvanize people to your vision. And so, I just sort of waited for more ideas to percolate. And a little bit farther down the line, I literally stumbled across a story in a local paper that said that the San Francisco Public Transportation Agency was retiring their diesel buses. And the bells really went ding, ding, ding in my head because I thought, right now, the zenith for repurpose, reuse, recycle is just hot and heavy. It's everywhere. And what better thing to do than to take something people love to hate, a public transportation bus, and to turn it into something good, mobile showers and toilets for people who are unhoused and don't have access to hygiene. The other more important thought I had about this being mobile was that it would allow us to reach people throughout the city because the unhoused in San Francisco are not just in one neighborhood. So no matter where you put a bricks and mortar facility, there's still hundreds, if not thousands of others that you will never reach because despite the fact that people think the unhoused people just move from place to place, they're like us. They have a neighborhood somewhere they feel safe. And so to be able to take the service to them became super important for me. So I started to work to get that bus. And the idea for L'Homme was born, and my odyssey with that organization began.
Max Chopovsky:
So I have a couple of logistical questions. Where would you keep the buses parked?
Doniece Sandoval:
Oh my God. Yeah, there were so many challenges. I had no clue how to go about. And so when I went to the city and finally convinced them that this is something they should let me pilot, I asked them, where can I throw them? Like, we don't have any space. We're like completely like bursting at the seams. The city's just growing and every available space is gone. But somebody directed me. to Treasure Island, which is the little island that sits on the bridge, just off the bridge between San Francisco and Oakland. And I went to meet with someone there and he drove me around. And I mean, you know, when you're in flow, things kind of just happen. He
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Doniece Sandoval:
randomly saw this gentleman, he said, Oh, you need to this meet this man. His name was Jovan Farsight. Turns out that Jovan had massive amount of warehouse space on Treasure Island. And I told him what I was doing and he was so moved. He's like, I am going to let you park all your buses here for free and we're gonna get six. And I am going to help you find the company that will help you retrofit those because that was the other logistical nightmare. I thought it would be easy to find companies who would retrofit this because they do it all the time for corporate things. Nike will turn a bus into a shoe shop or rock bands turn buses into all sorts of things too to accommodate their needs. but it was really hard and complicated. So he solved both my problems in one quick random meeting.
Max Chopovsky:
You guessed my second question, which is how do you retrofit?
Doniece Sandoval:
Hahaha.
Max Chopovsky:
I mean, the, you would hook them up to fire hydrants, right?
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes.
Max Chopovsky:
And so that's how you got the water, but you still had to install plumbing and then you had to filter everything and then, and then be able to expel the water. I mean, the, the source of the water was just one part of the equation. How did you do the rest of it?
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes. So first of all, I had an incredible architect I work with, someone named Brett Turpaluk. And he also understood all of the challenges of permitting problems in the city, right? Because we also had to create an ADA unit and it had to be just perfectly right. So this company that Jovan found for me was a kind of company that built the guts of skyscrapers. And so they had all of this Now that said, they had never taken a public transportation bus and installed plumbing and air and we
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Doniece Sandoval:
piped in speakers and all of these things that went into it. And it was a real iterative process. We all learned about macerators and dumping processes and particular temperatures of water and pressure that had to go right. So it was this unbelievable journey. of learning, of experimentation, and then absolute excitement when it finally came together.
Max Chopovsky:
So let's talk about that moment for a second. So when, on the day when you were finally ready to open the buses, there was probably a line of people ready to go. What was it like to see that first person board that bus
Doniece Sandoval:
haha
Max Chopovsky:
and then get off that bus after their appointment was over?
Doniece Sandoval:
Yeah. So there are two full bathrooms on the buses and you can enter them through the regular front and back doors. So there were two gentlemen that were standing there and they were a little weirded out truthfully and they spoke Spanish. And so they were speaking to each other. They did not know that I could understand what they were saying, but essentially we're just saying, okay, this is... interesting who takes a shower and goes to the bathroom on you know a city bus this is sort of weird but they're like what the heck you know we haven't had showers in weeks so they hop on
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Doniece Sandoval:
20 minutes later almost at the same time they come out and they have these sheshires grins on their face and I literally cried. The joy is of tears of joy because I knew it I knew in that moment it would work. That people would be willing to do it, that it could be transformative because they'd reconnect with their sense of dignity and it would spark a sense of like hope and opportunity and that's exactly what I saw in their faces.
Max Chopovsky:
that had to be powerful.
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes, it was. It made all those crazy hours and the hours to come all worth it.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, I can only imagine. Uh, when earlier you mentioned storytelling, what story do you think that that journey tells?
Doniece Sandoval:
Oh, I think it tells a couple. One. I think it tells people that didn't know like me that simple, basic needs for vulnerable populations aren't being met, that our cities and governments are failing and there are opportunities to address those. Secondly, that if you have the deep passion, the fire in the belly and the... collaboration. If you can get people on board with you for your vision, you can make so much happen, right? And it is a we thing, not an I thing, because I could never have done this by myself. And
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Doniece Sandoval:
I think that's delicious and yummy because it's sparks, it speaks of hope, right? And we certainly need hope these days.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally. Now, if we think about the story that you told from the first catalyst all the way through to seeing these two gentlemen come off the buses, what is the moral of that story for you?
Doniece Sandoval:
The moral of the story for me is that it's twofold. If you can see it, you can make it happen. And two, that we each have a role, an opportunity to play a role, and you don't have to do something huge like convert a bus. You can do simple things that can make a huge difference in someone's life.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, yeah, it's true. The most important thing is the first step.
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes, exactly.
Max Chopovsky:
Why did you choose that particular story to tell?
Doniece Sandoval:
I chose it because it really is the genesis of an odyssey in work for me that was the most rewarding, profound, amazing experience I have ever had in all the things that I have ever done. I learned so much about myself, but I learned so much about the people. that this touched both partners and staff, but the people that we work with, our guests. And that is hugely powerful for me.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, yeah. Now if you think of, because as somebody who was involved in PR for many years, you were a storyteller. And I would bet that you continued that, that you leveraged that skill throughout Lava May. So you've heard a lot of good stories. If you think of some of those stories that you've heard, what in your mind makes for a good story?
Doniece Sandoval:
They're authentic. They have an ability to bridge the storyteller and the audience. They are simple, right? We always think complex is so good, but we lose people. So you just keep it simple. And it often shows a solution or and attempted a solution in what the outcome was. And the person is sharing their passion, right? You can stand up there and be completely monotone and you lose your audience. But if you bravely open yourself up and share yourself truly authentically, then it comes across and it excites people, right? They feel it.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally. It's a vulnerability as well.
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes, that's the word.
Max Chopovsky:
How do you use storytelling in your own life, in your personal life?
Doniece Sandoval:
Well, this will come as maybe a surprise, but I stink at personal storytelling. I really, really do. I think what people always find surprising about me is that I am an introvert, right? And that means that I recharge by being on my own. But I am actually also incredibly shy. And when I get shy, I just kind of go inward. So this... role with Lava May to have been a leader and the spokesperson and everything really pushed me outside of my comfort zone. And I used all of my skills that I learned in PR and marketing to be that persona. But in my private life, I am much more of a listener. Now I was 16 year old daughter and I probably tell her the most stories because I'm trying to give her some sense of like. totally understand what you're going through. I went through it too, not that she always appreciates it, but there's probably the stories
Max Chopovsky:
Right.
Doniece Sandoval:
I tell the most right now. And the other times I'm much more reserved.
Max Chopovsky:
I feel like it's harder for an extrovert to act as an introvert than it is for an introvert to act as an extrovert. And I only base that off of my conversations with my wife who is an introvert. And it's harder for me to calm down than it is for her to be. in a crowd of people, which she has to do for work sometimes, and be a fantastic extrovert. But for me, I have times when I also really like to just relax and kind of be by myself, but I do get recharged from being with other people. For her, it's the opposite. And so I feel like I just wonder what you think about. What you think about that? Is it harder for an extrovert to become an introvert and just kind of have a veneer of calmness, of calm? Or is it harder for an introvert to say, you know what, I'm going to be on right now the way that you do for work.
Doniece Sandoval:
Yeah, that's really an interesting question. I think I agree with you, not being an extrovert. I don't kind of like know what it is, but I do think for like people in like my circumstances, anytime I'm asked to speak or when I had to do large events, what I would always do is think two things. One, I'm not here for me. I'm here to tell the story of people who don't have a voice or people who other people aren't listening to and that would make me come out of my shell.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Doniece Sandoval:
My mom, before I went on my year and a half work with the Olympic torch really in 1996, I was going around to small communities and big cities and she said to me, when you get shy you seem like a snob because you just go inside. and you're gonna go to all these small communities
Max Chopovsky:
Interesting.
Doniece Sandoval:
and people are gonna be intimidated by you because they don't know you're shy. So you need to like think about them and just be outside yourself and exude warmth and you know, everything else. And so these are the things that make me do become that extrovert in other people's eyes. Now, I don't know if I was naturally that how easy it would be to pull back. That does seem like that would be so much harder.
Max Chopovsky:
You know, it's interesting. I never thought about it this way, but you inadvertently arrived at this sort of hack, which is when you don't look at storytelling, when you approach storytelling from the perspective of you being a conduit and nothing but a conduit
Doniece Sandoval:
Bye.
Max Chopovsky:
for that story, all of a sudden it takes some pressure off
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes.
Max Chopovsky:
and you could just look at yourself
Doniece Sandoval:
Exactly,
Max Chopovsky:
as kind of the messenger, you know?
Doniece Sandoval:
exactly.
Max Chopovsky:
That's really interesting. What is your medium of choice when it comes to storytelling?
Doniece Sandoval:
Oh, definitely live. Obviously, we all started leveraging Zoom and digital communications much more since the pandemic. But there's just something about the energy in a room that you don't get. I've been having a lot of fun working with different universities and talking to students in their social entrepreneurship or MBA programs. But I don't get to see their faces. I don't. It's just. really different and if it's as good as you can get, fine, but I really like to be in person.
Max Chopovsky:
I mean, audience interaction is a huge part of storytelling.
Doniece Sandoval:
Great.
Max Chopovsky:
Like, can you imagine being a comedian
Doniece Sandoval:
Oh yeah,
Max Chopovsky:
and having to do a show on Zoom?
Doniece Sandoval:
no, I don't know how you do that. Because how do you adjust if it's falling flat, right?
Max Chopovsky:
100% 100% I think if you asked comedians, they would say 10 times out of 10, I would rather, especially for those that are earlier in their career who get terrified when they go up there because talk about vulnerability, right? Like sharing something that you've put so much work into and, and then just standing there hoping people will laugh.
Doniece Sandoval:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
But I bet you that all of them would say, I would much rather have that. than being there by myself in front of my computer, just doing it on Zoom.
Doniece Sandoval:
Exactly.
Max Chopovsky:
So the stories that you've told all have morals. Does every story have to have a moral?
Doniece Sandoval:
I don't think so. I think we tell some stories to make people happy, to bring joy. They can be silly. They can just be for sheer entertainment, right? Comedians tell very short stories, right? And they often don't have any moral whatsoever. Or maybe it's the opposite moral or something. But I think that there's definitely need for a range of types of stories. We don't always want to hear them have morals conveyed to us. And sometimes they're just historical. You're passing down the tradition right long before. Centuries ago it was just the oral tradition of passing down the story to capture the history.
Max Chopovsky:
which is a dying art.
Doniece Sandoval:
Sadly, yes.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. What advice would you give to those who wanna learn the craft of storytelling?
Doniece Sandoval:
I would say, you know, think about or write out whatever it is you want to say and then edit the heck out of it to make it simple, simple, simple.
Max Chopovsky:
here.
Doniece Sandoval:
Then speak from the heart, right?
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Doniece Sandoval:
Connect with that vulnerability within yourself because then you truly do reach this authentic connection with the audience. And then I think your story can really, really land. And if you are in person, you know. allow yourself the possibility that you might have to adjust. I mean, maybe you're speaking way too fast. It's like flying over the audience and you just sort of then, I tell myself,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Doniece Sandoval:
think of being trapped in amber and you can only move so fast, right? So, doing a little bit of dance on your feet
Max Chopovsky:
That's good.
Doniece Sandoval:
so that you can move with the audience wherever it is that they are and effectively land your message.
Max Chopovsky:
And that's kind of cool. So it's almost like a, so if you see it as a dance
Doniece Sandoval:
I do.
Max Chopovsky:
where it's almost a collaborative process.
Doniece Sandoval:
Exactly, exactly. I think you start out as, you know, because you're the one who's going to start talking. So you are sort of the leader, even though what you've done, hopefully, is crafted a message that's tailored to the audience that you are going to be speaking to. And then you start and then very quickly you release that so that they're leading and you're following as you're reading the cues from them and if it's interactive and where that's going as well. It's like tango. Yes, it's a skill.
Max Chopovsky:
It sounds very difficult. That's what, yeah. What is one of your favorite books
Doniece Sandoval:
Okay, so I have a lot, I read a lot, so it's hard for me, but I would say in the last couple
Max Chopovsky:
that gets storytelling right?
Doniece Sandoval:
years one of the best books I've read is Where the Crawdads Sing by Delia Owens. I know they've made into a movie, I haven't seen it, I tend not to watch movies of books that I absolutely love, but she is a master storyteller. She pulls you into this so beautifully and develops the characters. you hear the sounds, you know, in the swamps and you can smell things. And so it's multi-sensory and you care so much about the main character, especially. And so I think that that's really, really beautifully done. And that's probably kind of a good way to synopsize all of the books that I love the best. You know, I can think of like my first favorite book in high school was Catcher in the Rye. Holden Caulfield for me was just so painterly done by Salinger. And yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
Are you fiction or nonfiction generally?
Doniece Sandoval:
I try to do nonfiction. I have a lot of books on my nightstand. I get two or three chapters in and then I kind of just get stuck. I'm definitely a fiction reader and I have some stories in fiction that I love just because the plot is so great. It's so interesting. I read a lot of science fiction and YA and stuff like that, but the writing can be, eh. But when you get a book that's got an... incredible plot and beautiful writing. Oh my gosh, love it.
Max Chopovsky:
There is, so let me just see if I can pull this up because, oh my God, what is the book? I forget the name of it. It's about an attorney who was defending prisoners on death row.
Doniece Sandoval:
No.
Max Chopovsky:
You know what I'm talking about? Oh my God, you would totally like this.
Doniece Sandoval:
Okay.
Max Chopovsky:
I actually have to look this up. I'm gonna. what was it called? It was so good. I have to like scroll way back because I got this a while back.
Doniece Sandoval:
Is this nonfiction or fiction?
Max Chopovsky:
Let me see if I could just Google it.
Doniece Sandoval:
Oh yes, oh my gosh, you're thinking about that,
Max Chopovsky:
Nonfiction.
Doniece Sandoval:
oh my God, why is my brain dead?
Max Chopovsky:
The South, Bryan Stevenson.
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes, yes, the one who's, I keep the idea in his head,
Max Chopovsky:
Uh, what? But the
Doniece Sandoval:
he's said to really understand an issue, you've got to get proximate, right? This is something I would tell people, it's like you can have all sorts of ideas about what a homelessness is, but until you get out there, talk to some people and actually understand you got to get proximate
Max Chopovsky:
Yes.
Doniece Sandoval:
or you've got the story all wrong.
Max Chopovsky:
100%.
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes, yes.
Max Chopovsky:
Just Mercy is what it's called.
Doniece Sandoval:
Okay, I will, I actually think I have that somewhere.
Max Chopovsky:
Amazing book.
Doniece Sandoval:
I need to, I haven't started, I'll pull it up. Okay.
Max Chopovsky:
So good. Well, you know, you're right. I mean, the trick about the trick of nonfiction is making it sound is making it captivating. Like, like some historical, um, some history is captivating
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes.
Max Chopovsky:
naturally, but some of it, but a lot of it, I think you just have to really double down on good
Doniece Sandoval:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
storytelling, which is where fiction is easier, right? Like it's easier to
Doniece Sandoval:
Right.
Max Chopovsky:
paint a picture the way that the author did with Where to Crawl at saying,
Doniece Sandoval:
Thank you.
Max Chopovsky:
which by the way, I'm also a huge fan of the book, but with nonfiction, it's so difficult. So, uh, that, that book just mercy is absolutely fascinating. I think you'll love it.
Doniece Sandoval:
Okay.
Max Chopovsky:
So we talked about your favorite book. Tell me this. So if you go back to, if you had a moment with 20 year old Denise, what would you say to her? Let's just assume that, let's ignore for the fact, let's ignore for the moment, the fact that she probably would not listen to you.
Doniece Sandoval:
Okay, yes, that's totally true.
Max Chopovsky:
What would you say to her?
Doniece Sandoval:
I would tell her. to just trust herself, right? I think 20-year-old me, in addition to thinking she knew it all on some level, was really worried about the trajectory of her life, right? I had switched majors a few times. I wasn't really clear about what my ambition or where I wanted to make my mark in the world. I had gone from thinking I was either gonna to realizing, ah, I'm a generalist, I'm not a deep diver, I like to learn a lot about a lot of different things. Okay, great, what am I gonna do with that? And right after I graduated, I had an early life crisis
Max Chopovsky:
Yes.
Doniece Sandoval:
and was just completely like laid flat, thinking about my future. And so I would go back and whisper into her ear, it's okay, just take it a step at a time. It is okay that you're not one of those people who has a five-year plan every five years, that you just roll with it because you are nimble and you are resilient and you will find your way.
Max Chopovsky:
You know, I asked that question a lot on the show and that feedback is that comment makes an appearance much more often than you would think. And it's actually really powerful because of course our younger versions of ourselves would never listen. But I think that's good because a lot of people, myself very much included. feel like life has to be linear and predictable, and it's uncomfortable not to have control over that. In reality, we have to find ourselves, and only after we find ourselves can we actually know what it is that we really want. But in order to find yourself,
Doniece Sandoval:
Absolutely, and I think you at least it's been true for me.
Max Chopovsky:
sometimes you have to lose yourself.
Doniece Sandoval:
Finding myself is a process, right? So I will be 61 on Thursday and there have definitely been phases.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Doniece Sandoval:
It's not necessarily exactly every 10 years, but I am a radically different person in every single one of those phases. My core belief system might be the same, but. what I want to do with my life, the vision I have for all of these things radically changes.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. And I think that's, that's a great approach because if you look at it more as an evolution, it, a both takes the pressure off and B helps you embrace every stage of your life versus wanting to, you know, relive an earlier stage
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes.
Max Chopovsky:
or being concerned about the future. It just helps you really be in it wherever you are.
Doniece Sandoval:
Yes, and at some point you realize, wow, this really is an adventure and I'm in the driver's seat. That doesn't mean it always goes my way, but I have control of taking this little journey wherever I want it to.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna ask you one more question, which is if you actually had the choice whether or not you could go back and tell your 20 year old self, you know, to trust herself, would you do it?
Doniece Sandoval:
I'm going to say no. And I'll tell you a piece of advice my aunt gave my daughter in an interview she was doing. She said, free advice is worth about as much as it costs. Nothing. So it would be a wasted journey.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. Totally. It's like I tell my kids, you know, the lessons that stick with you the most are the ones that you learn the hardest.
Doniece Sandoval:
Absolutely.
Max Chopovsky:
Well, I love it. This was so fascinating. That does it. Denise Sandoval, the founder of Lava May, now Lava May X, thank you so much for being on the show.
Doniece Sandoval:
Such a pleasure. Thank you, Max.
Max Chopovsky:
For show notes and more head over to moss pod org find us on Apple podcast Spotify Amazon wherever you get your podcast on this was moral of the story. I'm Max Chopovsky. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next time.