32: Kevin Boehm
Celebrating the win with partner Rob Katz, pictured with Chef Daniel Boulud (photo: WTTW)
“And at this point, I sat back, I looked at my friend Scott, and I said, ‘what the hell is going on?’ And he goes, ‘I think we might be dining at the greatest fast food restaurant ever.’”
From the Episode
About Kevin
Kevin is the Co-CEO and Co-Founder of the BOKA Restaurant Group.
Born in 1970, Kevin grew up in Springfield, Illinois, and told his mother at age 10 that one day, he wanted to open his own restaurant. He liked the idea of being a host, of creating a destination.
Lots of kids have dreams of course, but Kevin set his sights so squarely on the hospitality industry that he would do anything to make it work. And little did he know just how much his resolve would be tested.
Inspired by his overachieving roommates at the University of Illinois, he took a semester off, packed his Jeep and drove to Florida with his life savings – $500 cash – for some self-directed on-the-job hospitality education.
It didn’t go as planned. With no experience, noone would hire him… except an amusement park. Not exactly what he was looking for, but he showed up and got to work. He moved in with a coworker… only to find out that his new roommate was stealing from him. He moved out and, with no place to go, slept on the beach and then a boarding house.
After finally saving up enough money to get his own place, he was attacked in his new apartment by, of all things, a bobcat that had escaped its owner's house, where it was being kept illegally as a pet.
It was at this point that he wondered if the universe was perhaps telling him that it was time to call it. If it was, Kevin clearly didn’t listen. After putting together an impressive, although embellished, resume he landed a coveted job as a captain at Beach House Restaurant.
And so began his journey. He started close to the bottom and as anyone who has ever worked in a restaurant – yours truly included – knows all too well, the back of the house is not for the faint of heart.
It was baptism by fire.
But Kevin is not faint of heart. Within a few years, in 1993, he’d had enough to open a six-table restaurant in Seaside, Florida, the idyllic setting for the movie The Truman Show. In 1995, he opened Indigo Wine Bar, and catered the movie’s dailies screenings.
Restaurants in Springfield and Nashville followed and by age 30, Kevin had opened and sold off four restaurants.
In 2002, Kevin met his future business partner Rob Katz to form what would become Boka restaurant group. Eventually, they would go on to open 31 restaurants in 20 years, earning 18 James Beard Award nominations, two Food & Wine Best New Chefs awards, 13 consecutive Michelin Guide stars for Boka, and 6 restaurants on Chicago Tribune’s Top 50 list.
Rob and Kevin have won awards from TimeOut Chicago, the Chicago Tribune, the Illinois Restaurant Association, and Eater; and in 2019, on their fourth consecutive nomination, were crowned The James Beard Best Restaurateurs in America.
Some would ride off into the sunset. But not Kevin. In 2020, while enduring a pandemic-driven collapse of the restaurant industry and fighting to keep his staff employed, he managed to open BIAN, a private wellness club called the ultimate wellness destination by Forbers. Some might say the timing was off, but Kevin being Kevin, he and his partners nursed the club to life, growing it to over 800 members and recently expanding it by another 9000 square feet.
These days, Kevin Boehm spends more time at the 30,000 foot level, shuttling back and forth between Chicago, LA and New York, where Boka has opened restaurants in recent years, writing for the likes of Esquire and sitting on the board of the Illinois Restaurant Association.
Nearly 40 successful restaurants and three beautiful and well-adjusted kids later, Kevin is embracing the mentorship stage of his life. And, although his hair products cabinet is still perpetually short on space, the plunging v necks have at least given way to slightly more conservative necklines.
But lest you forget, Kevin is always ready to shed that bespoke sport coat, roll up his sleeves, put on his Captain’s hat, and get down to business.
He has come a long way from the early 90s, adrift in the Florida panhandle. His multi-decade relationships – with Rob and their many chefs – have given him resiliency and a community of talented partners who, above all, want each diner to be amazed every time they walk into a Boka restaurant, and when they leave, for the memory of the meal – and the experience – to linger long after the doors close behind them.
Books
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Max Chopovsky:
This is Moral of the Story, interesting people telling their favorite short stories and then breaking them down to understand what makes them so good. I'm your host, Max Chopovsky. Today's guest is Kevin Boehm, the James Beard Foundation Award-winning restaurateur and one-half of the Boca Restaurant Group. Born in 1970, Kevin grew up in Springfield, Illinois, and told his mother at age 10 that one day he wanted to open his own restaurant. He liked the idea of being a host of creating a destination. Lots of kids have dreams, of course, but Kevin set his sights so squarely on the hospitality industry that he would do anything to make it work. And little did he know just how much his resolve would be tested. Inspired by his overachieving roommates at the University of Illinois, he took a semester off, packed his Jeep and drove to Florida with his life savings, 500 bucks in cash, for some self-directed on the job hospitality education. It didn't go as planned. With no experience, no one would hire him except an amusement park. Not exactly what he was looking for, but he showed up and got to work. He moved in with a coworker only to find out that his new roommate was stealing from him. He moved out and with no place to go, slept on the beach and then a boarding house. After finally saving up enough money to get his own place, he was attacked in his new apartment by, of all things, a bobcat that had escaped its owner's house where it was being kept illegally as a pet. It was at this point that he wondered if the universe was perhaps telling him that it was time to call it. If it was Kevin clearly didn't listen after putting together an impressive, although embellished resume, he landed a coveted job as captain at beach house restaurant. And so began his journey. He started close to the bottom and has, as anyone who has ever worked in a restaurant, yours truly included, knows all too well, the back of the house is not for the faint of heart. It was baptism by fire. But Kevin is not faint of heart. Within a few years in 1993, he had enough to open a six table restaurant in Seaside, Florida, the idyllic setting for the movie, The Truman Show. In 1995, he opened Indigo Wine Bar and catered the movie's dailies screenings. Restaurants in Springfield and Nashville followed and by age 30, Kevin had opened and sold off four restaurants. In 2002, Kevin met his future business partner, Rob Katz to form Boca restaurant group. Eventually they would go on to open over 30 restaurants in 20 years, earning 18 James Beard award nominations, two foot and wine best new chefs awards, 13 consecutive Michelin guide stars for Boca and six restaurants on Chicago Tribune's top 50 list. Robin Kevin have won awards from Time Out Chicago, the Chicago Tribune, the Illinois restaurant association and Eater. And in 2019 on their fourth consecutive nomination were crowned the beard, best restaurateurs in America. Some would ride off into the sunset, but not Kevin. In 2020, while enduring a pandemic-driven collapse of the restaurant industry and fighting to keep his staff employed, he managed to open, beyond. A private wellness club called the Ultimate Wellness Destination by Forbes. Some might say the timing was off, but Kevin being Kevin, he and his partners nursed the club to life, growing it to over 800 members and recently expanding it by another 9,000 square feet. These days, Kevin Boehm spends more time at the 30,000 foot level, shuttling back and forth between Chicago, LA and New York, where Boca has opened restaurants in recent years, writing for the likes of Esquire and sitting on the board of the Illinois restaurant association. Nearly 40 successful restaurants and three well adjusted kids later, Kevin is embracing the mentorship stage of his life. And although his hair products cabinet is still perpetually short on space, the plunging V-necks have at least given way to slightly more conservative necklines. But lest you forget, Kevin is always ready to shed that bespoke sport coat, roll up his sleeves, put on his captain's hat and get down to business. He's come a long way from the early nineties, a drift in the Florida panhandle. His multi-decade relationships with Rob and their many chefs have given him resiliency and a community of talented partners who above all want each diner to be amazed every time they walk into a Boca restaurant. And when they leave for the memory of the meal and the experience to linger long after the doors closed behind them. Kevin, welcome to the show, brother.
Kevin Boehm:
There was some James Lipton inside the Actors Studio, like sneaky information in that bio. Well done.
Max Chopovsky:
hahahaha
Kevin Boehm:
Thanks. That's maybe the best intro I've ever gotten. Thank you very much.
Max Chopovsky:
Thanks brother. Thanks. At least I could do. You've had quite an eventful life so far.
Kevin Boehm:
been colorful.
Max Chopovsky:
Colorful. That's a really good term for it. Really good term. So you're here to tell
Kevin Boehm:
Okay.
Max Chopovsky:
us a story. So set the stage. Is there anything that we should know before we get into it?
Kevin Boehm:
Sure, it was 1997. I was living in Springfield, Illinois. I had one restaurant called Indigo at the time. And I was driving from Springfield, Illinois to St. Louis with a chef friend of mine named Scott Alderson. And on our way, we got hungry and pulled off at an exit and drove in and parked at a Wendy's in a little town called Carlinville, Illinois. So. I walked into the Wendy's and there was a woman up front who worked at Wendy's just standing up front just to greet guests. And she said, gentlemen, welcome to Wendy's hamburgers. And I looked at her name tag and said, thank you, Amy. I'd never seen a Matre D at a fast food restaurant before, but I walked up to the counter and the man who was behind the cash register told us about. Dave's spicy chicken sandwich, which had just gone on the menu. Like he was working at like a Michelin three-star restaurant. And I said, well,
Max Chopovsky:
Ha
Kevin Boehm:
thank
Max Chopovsky:
ha
Kevin Boehm:
you for
Max Chopovsky:
ha.
Kevin Boehm:
that explanation, Mike. Um, yes, I'll have that spicy chicken sandwich. I ordered a water and I also ordered the super bar Wendy's back in the day. I had a super bar that had not only had salad on it, but it also had pasta. Um, and so we sit down, I'd ordered a water and then when I went up to get the super bar. I dropped a couple pieces of penne pasta off, and the woman who was the host came by with a napkin and she pushed the pasta in the napkin and kept that station immaculate. And so
Max Chopovsky:
What?
Kevin Boehm:
then I sit down and that same woman comes by our table and she refills my water with a pitcher. And it was at this point, I kind of sat back and I looked at my friend Scott and I said, what the hell is going on? He goes, I think we might be dining at the greatest fast food restaurant ever. And we started this conversation about how brilliant must this manager be of this Wendy's? So I said, I'm going to ask for him. So I stood up and I said, can I see the manager please? And Mike said, I'm sorry sir, is there a problem? I go, no, there's no problem. I just would like to speak to him. And so the manager comes out and I said, Hey, I'd like to pay you a compliment. I was like, this might be the best well-run fast food restaurant I've ever been in before. It's immaculate. The people are happy to be here. They take their jobs seriously. I mean, well done. And he goes, well, as you can see, we're very proud of it. And he pointed to the wall and they were the number one Wendy's in the U S they just won the golden Wendy's award. And I went back. And I was simultaneously inspired and pissed off. At the time I had what had just won the best restaurant in Springfield, Illinois. And I looked at Scott, I go, are you telling me that we have trouble everyday motivating our people in what just got named the best restaurant in Springfield? And this guy in the same Wendy's A-frame with the same menu has somehow got these guys so amped up to be the best at what they do. And the analogy we made was cover versions of songs. And I was like,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
the Beatles were the standard bearer for every song they ever did until Joe Cocker re-did with a little help from my friends. And he created something that was the same lyrics and melody, but didn't even sound like the same song. The Beatles
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
even admitted it was a better version of the song. And so I was like, this guy's doing the best cover version of any Wendy's that's ever existed before. And so I started thinking about that in terms of life. It doesn't matter what you do, whether you're a real estate agent, a CFO, owning restaurants, we're all doing cover versions. And there's this relationship between the core competencies of what we do. You know,
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Boehm:
the ability to sell a house, the ability to navigate. the legal things that come along with that. And then where are the places I can bend it? Where are
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Boehm:
the places that I make it my own? Where's the stuff that says I've never seen that before? And so I was a young restaurateur at that point. I was 26, 27 years old. And I started to think more creatively about what was mine. Before that, I think I was... trying to copy certain people. I was building this Frankenstein of who I was, and I'm gonna take from this
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Boehm:
and take from that, and started doing little things that were just my own. I gave out a deck of cards to managers that were fifteen cards in it, and every card was something that the perfect manager could do. And I would only give them the amount of cards that they had perfected. So I might give a manager three cards, but when he mastered something else, I would give him another card. And I remember putting a chalkboard on the side of the bar. And if anybody wanted to open any bottle on my wine list, even if it was Chateau Lafite, all they had to do is write the bottle on the chalkboard. And if two more people would write their name under it, I would open the bottle. So I just started like spending my time thinking about all these ways I could bend it. And I think a lot of that creativity came from two people. the Wendy's manager. And I walked into a restaurant one time and somebody had a posted note inside the menu that said, Mr. Bane, the guy on your left is an asshole. He will be gone soon until then bear with us. And it was at a fine dining restaurant. Those two things, that ability to blank canvas what you were doing. It's like those two guys gave me permission to be able to be creative.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
And so I I still take with me all these years, those two guys, the maitre d' of Josephine's restaurant Seaside Florida and the general manager of the Wendy's in Carlinville, Illinois in 1997 are two of my most important members, mentors, and that Wendy's is one of my most important meals.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm, because it was an education and a meal. I had a guest on the show recently that talked about how you never know where and from whom an incredibly important lesson could come. And the challenge that most people have is that they have preconceived notions about who in their lives or whose paths cross with theirs have the stature and experience to be able to provide them with wisdom. And a lot of people miss out on some wonderful opportunities and some wonderful lessons because they don't think that somebody like a mailman, actually from his story, could tell them that, you know, they have, that what they have is cancer, which is literally what he was telling in his story. Sometimes people aren't ready. And what I found so fascinating is that you were in the right place at the right time, you happened to get off at that exit and go into the Wendy's, not the Arby's or the Denny's or the Burger King. And you happen to get primed for the experience by the woman who greeted you at the door, and that made you more alert and more. paying more attention to detail as you got in there. The food was exactly the same. Right. I mean, there was nothing special.
Kevin Boehm:
Correct.
Max Chopovsky:
It's, it's, it's a recipe, right? It's, it's a chain. What did the manager say to you when you said, how do you motivate these people? What did he say?
Kevin Boehm:
You know, it's funny, we didn't really get into it. I complimented him, he showed me that, and I just said, congratulations, and I moved on. So it's interesting looking back on it now that, you know, I've seen so many great leaders over time that I know basically who he was and who he had to be to be able to get there. And usually those great leaders, especially in restaurants, get there in a few different ways. One, they push more with charisma than with force.
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Boehm:
Two, they're good at manipulating the end result that they want to achieve. Not everybody is motivated in the same way. Not everybody's motivated in the same way.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally.
Kevin Boehm:
So you have to look at a landscape of people and you have to say, this person's motivated by money. This person's motivated by praise. This person is motivated by watching an example of what he's supposed to do. And
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Boehm:
he must have been a chameleon in that way.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah. It reminds me of this podcast. So when I started that, I edited every episode myself, and it would take me hours to edit each episode and I would focus on the smallest details. Cause I'm a perfectionist and I finally realized that diminishing returns were the concept of diminishing returns was starting to cost me a lot of time. And the analogy that I came up with is let's say that an orally perfect, literally perfect podcast that is produced by a full team, right? With sound effects and, uh, and a soundtrack is a hundred on a scale of one to a hundred. Right. And I am slaving away to increase the quality from 93 to 95. Right. And I just can't go above 95 because I don't have the budget or the team. And it hit me at one point that actually the audience stops being able to tell the difference at 85. So everything I'm doing between 85 and even 93 is something that maybe I'll
Kevin Boehm:
You're
Max Chopovsky:
know,
Kevin Boehm:
doing for
Max Chopovsky:
but
Kevin Boehm:
yourself.
Max Chopovsky:
you also need,
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
yeah, I'm doing it for myself and I also need, but you also need studio monitors to hear it and all of that. This guy knew that paying somebody's. Uh, you know, hourly wage to stand outside the Wendy's was not going to add to his bottom line whatsoever. Like none margins are terrible to begin with, but also they're not high price items, right? I mean, talking about dollar menu, right?
Kevin Boehm:
Correct.
Max Chopovsky:
And neither was it going to add to his bottom line to have somebody come over and wipe off the food off the salad bar, right? Because that person could have been using their time elsewhere, or you could have maybe cut another staff member. He didn't care. He was doing it for the experience of the people that show up to the restaurants. And so when I think about him and compare him to you, you're not doing a cover of a song. You're writing, you and Rob and your chef partners are writing new songs for every restaurant that you open and that allows you. to craft experiences that are so vastly different and influenced by such widely ranging influences that you're not constrained by a boilerplate menu or a boilerplate brand. Right. And so
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
I find that really interesting because you're right. Like you have to, you have to meet people where they are in terms of what motivates them.
Kevin Boehm:
Well, it's funny is we're writing multiple endings all the time. There's a certain amount of the script in my life that's written all the time. And then
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Boehm:
there's, there's this room every single night to write a different ending based on what happens.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
I have a friend who, uh, who was on Broadway in a place in a play called Joe fearless years ago. And he was telling me about it. And he's like, he's like, the stage was a basketball court and on and when you went into the theater before the play started, they actually had choreographed like, you know, lay up drills and slam dunks and stuff like that. And so
Max Chopovsky:
Mm-hmm.
Kevin Boehm:
then the play started, the play was 70% basketball court, 30% a man's apartment watching the basketball game. And so my buddy during, while the play was going on, noticed that Philip Seymour Hoffman was sitting in the front row. And so at the end of the play, he gets the ball. It's a 12 foot jump shot. My friend makes it. They all celebrate on stage. The man in the apartment goes bananas and the play ends and the curtains close. Michael went back, he changed clothes, goes out the side stage and Philip Seymour Hoffman's waiting there up against a pole with his arms crossed. And he goes, what happens if you miss it? He goes, it's a different ending. He goes, what's the other ending? He goes, You got to come on a night when I miss.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
And I immediately go, holy shit. That's what we do every single night. I don't know if the woman at table 33 is going to have the meal of her life, or if she's going to catch her hair on fire with a candle, but I have like 27 different endings that I could, that I've already pre-written and I know which one I'm going to go to, or if something crazy that I've never seen before happens. I can write shit on a fly.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally. I mean, you are kind of improvising, right? Every,
Kevin Boehm:
It's improv.
Max Chopovsky:
every night, you're kind of improvising.
Kevin Boehm:
Yep.
Max Chopovsky:
So we had, I had some buddies and I got a table at GT Prime a while ago. It was a couple of years ago and it was that corner booth, right? As you walk in, you make a left and it's all the way in the corner, that big round booth. And there were three of us.
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
And I remember we were sitting there and, um, I think we overstayed our welcome because they came over and they said, you know, here's a check. Just no rush whenever you're ready. And then they came back again and the no rush was gone. It was like, whenever you're ready. And we just didn't get the hint. Like we were just being idiots about it. And finally, uh, the, I think it was the hostess, she came over and she said, um, gentlemen, I would love to offer you a spot at the bar. And it simultaneously hit me that, oh my God, we've definitely prevented them from. flipping the table, right? But also, that was brilliant. She invited us somewhere versus kicking us out. And like, that to me is the kind of creativity that you need on a regular basis because anything goes in a restaurant, right?
Kevin Boehm:
Uh, the invitation to sit at the bar. This is a move that I've talked about so many times over the years because. You know, the reservation system is so imperfect. We are guessing at how long someone will sit at a table. And there's
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
all these moments that have happened to me over the years where you're like, okay, we allotted two hours and 15 minutes for them. And they've sat three 20 and it. It only goes, it goes well, if it's presented well, it goes well about 85 or 90% of the time. But there is the, there is those 10 times out of a hundred where somebody's ticked about it. Even when you invite them to have a seat at the bar, like I can sit here as long as I want to. There are people that are indignant about it. So it's
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
a fast, I've talked about it a lot about how that's presented, you know. There's no perfect way to do it, but there's a really good way to do it. Sounds like she did it in a good way.
Max Chopovsky:
She nailed
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
it. We're like, oh yeah, that actually sounds great. And oh my God, we're so sorry. Like I just realized we've
Kevin Boehm:
I'm
Max Chopovsky:
probably
Kevin Boehm:
sorry.
Max Chopovsky:
been here and like into someone else's reservation. So let's go back to the Wendy story for a second. What is the moral
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
of that story for you?
Kevin Boehm:
The moral of the story for me is no matter what you're doing, don't get into a rhythm of it to where it's mechanical. Take a look at what you do and make it special because it won't only feed the people that you serve in your life or that you work with, it'll feed you as well. is what keeps it interesting for me and gives me injections of dopamine. And that's what makes life interesting. It's going to make life interesting for the people around you, for you, no matter what position you're in, whatever you're doing in life. Find the way
Max Chopovsky:
Totally.
Kevin Boehm:
to make your cover version special and interesting. It'll make life
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
more interesting.
Max Chopovsky:
Yep. Change the words a little bit. Play a couple of different notes on the guitar solo. It's,
Kevin Boehm:
That's right.
Max Chopovsky:
it's, it's the little
Kevin Boehm:
Turn
Max Chopovsky:
tweaks.
Kevin Boehm:
it, turn it, turn. Yeah, turn, you know, I wanna dance with somebody by Whitney Houston and do a ballad, which I heard the other day. You know, there's so
Max Chopovsky:
Yes.
Kevin Boehm:
many things you can do.
Max Chopovsky:
Yes, that's why some remixes are better than the originals. They just are.
Kevin Boehm:
Correct. Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
Now I know you have a ton of stories that you could have told. Why did you choose that story?
Kevin Boehm:
the impact it has on people. It's so interesting. I have, you know, I have like 30 stories that I tell and that one, for some reason, always connects with people, you know. People will come up afterwards or somebody that used to work for me will come and say, you know, I tell the Wendy story at my restaurant now.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
I had something the other day. I told the Wendy's story the other day, but
Max Chopovsky:
Thank
Kevin Boehm:
it
Max Chopovsky:
you.
Kevin Boehm:
was more impactful if I was the guy at Wendy's. So I told it with me. I was like, well,
Max Chopovsky:
Ha!
Kevin Boehm:
I think you owe me a royalty for that.
Max Chopovsky:
Ha ha.
Kevin Boehm:
I was like, that's like when Kramer sold his stories on Seinfeld. I'm like, I'm not selling the Wendy's story. That shit happened to me.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally, totally. It's just, it's unexpected, right? Like you weren't expecting to get off at this random exit and see that. And I think the overarching theme of that story is at the end of the day, irrespective of how the manager got these people to do this, what they displayed on a large scale is empathy towards the people that came into their restaurant.
Kevin Boehm:
100%.
Max Chopovsky:
And that is so underrated.
Kevin Boehm:
It's all about empathy.
Max Chopovsky:
That's all it is.
Kevin Boehm:
My first two questions when I interview someone, my first question always is, what did you have for breakfast? Just because I like to get people talking and see what they do with that. But two is like, do you like to take care of people? If the answer is no, you're not going to be good at the job that I do. And those people, they're, you know... liked to take care of people. It's obvious.
Max Chopovsky:
You have to, I mean, hospitality, the root of that word is hospitable. Right.
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah,
Max Chopovsky:
Uh,
Kevin Boehm:
yeah,
Max Chopovsky:
a friend,
Kevin Boehm:
that's right.
Max Chopovsky:
a friend of mine has a, um, uh, runs a successful tech company. And one of his first interview questions is, um, it's a leading question. So it's imperfect, but it is telling and insightful. Nevertheless, are you the kind of person that puts shopping carts back when you're done with them in the parking lot?
Kevin Boehm:
My God, I can't believe you just said that to me. I was just in a hurry and I was at Target and I had my shopping cart and the rack was a long ways away and I was just like, don't be a dick, go take it back. I said to myself and I ran it over there, I go just sprint and run it over there, you're in a hurry, take it back. And I did.
Max Chopovsky:
It's worth it. 10 times out of 10. Cause you're not only showing
Kevin Boehm:
So,
Max Chopovsky:
empathy
Kevin Boehm:
Bonnie
Max Chopovsky:
to the person
Kevin Boehm:
said
Max Chopovsky:
that
Kevin Boehm:
that.
Max Chopovsky:
has to
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
write, like to just log that entire column of shopping carts, but also what if your kids are in the car?
Kevin Boehm:
Yep.
Max Chopovsky:
Like what happens if they see it? Right. Um, so what do you think makes that Wendy's story work from a structural perspective as a story?
Kevin Boehm:
Well, I think it starts out with the fact that like, you know, you're like, I walk into a Wendy's hamburger and like, what could possibly good people at the very beginning, like this is a very normal innocuous thing to do, you know, walk into a Wendy's to have a hamburger. Where, how is there going to be a great story out of this? Like a lot of stories
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
start and you already know that there's either stakes or it's like, so I, so, you know, I got invited to a dinner with Barack Obama. You know, as soon as you, as soon as you hear that
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
you're like ready for something major to happen, but walking into a Wendy's, it sets. The expectations is very low. Um, and, and then there's a payoff, which is they were the best at what they did. You know, there, there's, there's an, there's an unexpected and fun little payoff, um, in it. Um, and you know,
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
you, you have a cast of characters, you know,
Max Chopovsky:
Yes.
Kevin Boehm:
you have the woman at the front and you have, you have the cash register guy and you have the manager. Um, uh, and you know, depending on how I tell this story, the chef I was with, there's a very accomplished chef too. So you have a restaurateur and a chef
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
sitting in something that's probably, you know, in deep contrast. to the fine
Max Chopovsky:
Yep.
Kevin Boehm:
dining restaurants that we were trying to do. So there's all these things that made us the same. And there were these things that made us different. And then, you know, and then we were inspired by them, even though we probably were just like, oh, this is just a stupid fast food restaurant. I ended up learning as much from them as maybe I have anybody.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally.
Kevin Boehm:
So lots of surprises along the way.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally. And I think that's a big part of, you know, what makes a good story is a twist, a little twist.
Kevin Boehm:
Little twist.
Max Chopovsky:
Now,
Kevin Boehm:
It's what made the sixth
Max Chopovsky:
you...
Kevin Boehm:
sense or a big twist.
Max Chopovsky:
A big, yeah, totally exactly.
Kevin Boehm:
Hehehehe
Max Chopovsky:
It w a 100% like a rural Wendy's, right? Um,
Kevin Boehm:
Yes.
Max Chopovsky:
what's interesting is it also helped to accelerate a path that you were on, which is a path towards authenticity. When you said that you were Frankensteining some of your restaurants, it was trying to. do what other things, what other people have done. I love bios and I was reading, um, Kevin Hart's bio and he talked about how he didn't truly become successful until his material started being based on his own life, which required vulnerability. It required, um, you know, sensitivity to what he goes through and being able to see that bottle it and twist it in a way that, you know, makes it funny, even though a lot of these things, you're going to have to change them to make them funny. It's just funny shit that happens to us on a daily basis. But it's that same path towards authenticity that made him so much more successful. And it was and it was the same thing with you. And I feel like you guys are continuing it to this day because every restaurant pays homage to something, a place, a time, you know.
Kevin Boehm:
try to.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, you do a great job. You have heard some wonderful stories in your day. I'm sure you hear a lot of them. What do these good stories have in common?
Kevin Boehm:
Well, there's great stories and there's great storytellers.
Max Chopovsky:
So let's talk about the stories, although I'd like to delineate that later.
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah. You know, one, and hence the title of your podcast, great stories have a moral or a lesson, you know, a moral, a lesson or humor, you know? Um, and, you know, sometimes all of those things. Um, You know, my favorite storyteller is one of my best friends, which is Will Gidera. Um, and he's so good at crafting stories that give people a takeaway. So the best stories to me is there's a takeaway and it's a universal takeaway. It's not
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
a takeaway that is specific to your industry. It's a takeaway that anybody could use. Um, we. I'm part of the Welcome Conference in Chicago. The Welcome Conference started in New York, Will started it. It's basically a day of storytelling. It's 12 speakers in one day. It's gonna be in Chicago at the Harris Theater on June 26th with some amazing speakers and humans. And we always say when you do those speeches, give people a takeaway. Tell them what you're talking about, then tell them what you're talking about, then tell them what you're talking about again, and make sure you have that line in there that people remember. Will has one of the great stories of all time, which is a story about a hot dog. He had 11 Madison Park, which is the number one restaurant in the world, and he overheard a table one night saying, we died in every four-star restaurant in Chicago. or every four-star restaurant in New York, every Michelin three-star restaurant in New York, the only thing we didn't do is have a dirty water hot dog. And so Will overheard it. He ran outside, had a hot dog cart guy, bring the hot dog cart inside 11 Madison Park, tableside, had the chef come out, cut the hot dogs, do a little dollop of ketchup on each of the plates, and serve them all. this hot dog at Alem Etzapark. And they said, of all the stuff that we've had happen to us in New York, that was the greatest thing. They were serving some of the most intricate food on the planet, but it was the hot dog that made that experience. And so. I love
Max Chopovsky:
When
Kevin Boehm:
that
Max Chopovsky:
I turned
Kevin Boehm:
story.
Max Chopovsky:
It's a it's an amazing story. It reminds me of a time when I turned when I turned 30 We went to Cortino for dinner and they used to have this These have these Brussels sprouts on the menu and I was obsessed with these Brussels sprouts They made them so well and when we got there for my birthday, we probably had like, you know a dozen people there I looked on the menu, there were no Brussels sprouts. And I asked the waitress if they discontinued it. They don't have it anymore. She's like, we don't, I'm sorry. I'm like, man, okay. I get it. I just really love those Brussels sprouts so much. She's like, hold on, let me see what I can do. And I thought she was going to go back into the kitchen, see if they maybe like had some for another dish or whatever. She left, went to Jewel down the street. got some Brussels sprouts, came back, they made them and they brought them out. This was 10 years ago and I'm still talking about it. Right. These are, these are not things
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
you have to do. They're not things you have to do, but they
Kevin Boehm:
down.
Max Chopovsky:
are the things that people will remember. Um, so how do you storytelling in your personal life?
Kevin Boehm:
Well, I use it as a teacher. You know, I think that it's so much easier to make a lesson hit home with a story. You know, we always say, identify the problem, solve the problem, teach the solution. The teaching of a solution sometimes, you could be a bit of a bull in a China shop with it. You're constantly telling people, hey, This is what you're supposed to do and here's how you do it. They get annoyed by it. You become a know-it-all. If you can sell it with a story, it becomes something that they become emotionally attached to. And that story then has a life to it. They start telling
Max Chopovsky:
Yes.
Kevin Boehm:
the story. They're like, you know what? I used to do it this way, but then I heard this story. And so it's a softer way of being a teacher or a mentor.
Max Chopovsky:
in a more memorable way. Keep connected
Kevin Boehm:
in a more
Max Chopovsky:
with the
Kevin Boehm:
memorable
Max Chopovsky:
story.
Kevin Boehm:
way. Yeah, that's right. And so also with my kids, you know.
Max Chopovsky:
Yep, that is, uh, that's, that's a common refrain and I think it helps kids learn. Um, what advice would you give to those that want to learn the craft of storytelling?
Kevin Boehm:
listen to great storytellers, that would be one. Two, the ability to pause and make dramatic pauses. Like one of the best moments of that story, the Wendy story for me is when I sit back up for a second and I said, and I looked at Scott and I said, what the hell is going on? You know, it's like the ability to slow down for a second and then feed a line. you at the right moment can pull the audience in. If you try to tell a story too fast or you don't use inflection enough, that's the other thing. You tell a story and it's just monotone. You talk like this the whole time, but you gotta like get excited in parts and then back up and then talk softly. And so it's, you know, you're writing a song and the notes
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
have to be right. And the notes include timing and volume and pitch. And so that crafting of a story, going back to, you and I talked before we even got on here, though, like, I've been working on a book, and my advice, one of my housemates gave me was write all your stories down on Post-it notes, because books are 92% great stories and 8% commentary, and then figure out which of those stories you have crafted and which ones you don't. Crafting a story? You really got to be a detailed person because you're really setting a visual for people.
Max Chopovsky:
Totally.
Kevin Boehm:
And when you can do that, when you can put them in that space, it can be so impactful.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah, totally. And then they engage and that leads
Kevin Boehm:
Yeah.
Max Chopovsky:
to impact and being able to recall the story. Uh, a couple more questions. Um, what is one of your favorite books that gets storytelling? Right.
Kevin Boehm:
I think J.R. Moranger is a great storyteller. He wrote a book called The Tender Bar. They came out with a movie a couple of years ago about it. I didn't watch the movie, but it's... J.R. Moranger had been abandoned by his father and his father was a radio DJ. So even though he didn't have much contact with his father, he still heard his father's voice every night.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
I remember reading that in the beginning and just being there with him. And the contrast between who his father was on the radio and who he was in real life was vast. But he
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
bought into the illusion more than the reality.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
I remember reading it and thinking about both sides now, the Joni Mitchell song, because in that story, in that song, it's all about what the reality is and what the illusion is, and she decides to choose the illusion. And
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
as he's writing about himself as a young boy and choosing the illusion, and there were bits and pieces of my own childhood that I saw myself in him.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
And so... It's a great book.
Max Chopovsky:
powerful. Well, last question. If you could say one thing to your 20 year old self, what would it be?
Kevin Boehm:
Get a therapist.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
I waited 49 years to get a therapist and I did everything else. I did everything else wellness that I possibly could. I'm 52 years old. I waited way too long to get a good therapist. It's changed my life. Everybody is obsessed with working out and taking care of their body. Their mind's twice as important. a lot of things in my childhood that affected me for the rest of my life and I could have been so much happier along this ride if I'd just done a few things and one of the biggest things was get a therapist. And you know listen I grew up in the 70s and 80s with two parents who were in dire need of therapists and never did anything about it and it was you know it's become a much more much less taboo thing to talk about, you know, having a therapist. And so be open about it, talk about that stuff.
Max Chopovsky:
Yeah.
Kevin Boehm:
Can change your life, change the way you think about yourself, can change the way you love yourself and the way you love other people. It's probably the most
Max Chopovsky:
Yes.
Kevin Boehm:
important thing in life.
Max Chopovsky:
As someone who grew up in the former Soviet Union where mental problems didn't exist, right. It was all kind of made
Kevin Boehm:
Didn't exist
Max Chopovsky:
up.
Kevin Boehm:
yet.
Max Chopovsky:
Didn't exist with heavy, heavy air quotes. Uh, I, it was, it was game changing for me. And I think, um, if there's a silver lining to the pandemic. It's that it allowed us to sit with ourselves and understand what's really important. So, um, what a great, what a great note to end on. Uh, well that does it. Uh, Kevin Bain from Boca restaurant group. Thank you for being on the show.
Kevin Boehm:
It was completely my pleasure. Thanks for letting me go in the deep end of the pool with you on some of that stuff. Small
Max Chopovsky:
I love
Kevin Boehm:
talk
Max Chopovsky:
it.
Kevin Boehm:
is, I'm allergic to small talk.
Max Chopovsky:
The deep end of the pool is where the good stuff happens.
Kevin Boehm:
That's right.
Max Chopovsky:
For show notes and more head over to moss pod.org. Find us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, wherever you get your podcast on. And I should also mention Kevin will have a book coming out called the bottomless cup next year. So, uh, make sure that you pick that up when it comes out and,
Kevin Boehm:
Probably early,
Kevin Boehm:
probably early 2025.
Max Chopovsky:
in early 2025. Uh, this was moral of the story. I'm Max Chopovsky. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next time.