35: Reggie Walker
Photo by Jeffrey Beall
“And then she looked right at me and she was the happiest I’ve ever seen her. And it crushed me. Because I had nothing inside; nothing to give to her.”
About Reggie
Reggie Walker was the kind of guy who seemed to have his life all figured out. A career in the NFL, money, cars, prestige – to the outside world, he had it all. But inside, he was slowly falling into a dark abyss that he thought would swallow him whole.
Born in Fairbanks Alaska, Reggie grew up in Missouri and Sacramento. He was obsessed with football, becoming one of the top high school linebackers in the state of California. He was a Metro Conference selection, and the league’s defensive MVP. A stud off the field, he was also involved in the math honors club.
After college, Reggie was drafted by the Arizona Cardinals and subsequently went on to play for the San Diego Chargers, eventually signing with the Denver Broncos.
The world was his oyster. What the world didn’t know was the crushing weight of the secret Reggie was carrying with him all those years: he had been mentally, physically, and sexually abused by a family friend as a child. He kept this secret from everyone, even his own family.
The world saw a powerful linebacker. But Reggie saw a small child, running desperately from the boogieman. Running, screaming, clawing, grasping at anything to help him escape being swallowed by the darkness.
And so he took it out on the field. Football had become an outlet for his anger. The violence on the field was not only accepted, it was celebrated. Refusing to take off his helmet for fear of showing his face, he burned with rage as he spiraled out of control.
The very game he thought would bring him happiness, pulled him deeper into the abyss. Despite his achievements, he still felt broken. Football, he realized, was just a bandaid, a crutch. But he needed it to release his anger. Eventually, he found that he enjoyed the violence but felt nothing. Saw nothing. Just darkness.
Yet, as the glue of his young family, Reggie had to keep it together, pushing it all down, compressing it like a spring… harder and harder.
Finally, it all exploded. Reggie couldn’t run any more. The weight of his dark secret had finally crushed him. And so one day, Reggie did something that seemed unthinkable to everyone around him: he walked away from football. Suicidal and broken, he knew he needed help.
He started weekly therapy but it wasn’t enough. So, he checked himself into a 30-day inpatient treatment program and began the long climb out. His kids helped ground him, reminding him of what really matters and why he’s here.
Now on the other side, Reggie has realized that he is good enough. He has embraced himself, his past, his present, and his future, whatever it may hold. He doesn’t hide himself anymore. The tears, the fears, the imperfections - it’s all there. The helmet has come off for good.
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Max Chopovsky: 0:02
This is Moral of the Story interesting people telling their favorite short stories and then breaking them down to understand what makes them so good. I'm your host, max Tropowski. Today's guest is Reggie Walker, the kind of guy who seemed to have his life all figured out A career in the NFL, money, cars, prestige to the outside world he had it all. But inside he was slowly falling into a dark abyss that he thought would swallow him whole One in Fairbanks, alaska. Reggie grew up in Missouri and Sacramento. He was obsessed with football, becoming one of the top high school linebackers in the state of California. He was a Metro Conference selection and the league's defensive MVP A stud off the field as well. he was also involved in the Math Honors Club. After college, reggie was drafted by the Arizona Cardinals and subsequently went on to play for the San Diego Chargers, eventually signing with the Denver Broncos. The world was his oyster. What the world didn't know was the crushing weight of the secret Reggie was carrying with him. all those years He had been mentally, physically and sexually abused by a family friend as a child. He kept the secret from everyone, even his own family. The world saw a powerful linebacker, but Reggie saw a small child running desperately from the boogeyman, running screaming, clawing, grasping at anything to help him escape being swallowed by the darkness. And so he took it out on the field. Football had become an outlet for his anger. The violence on the field was not only accepted, it was celebrated. Refusing to take off his helmet for fear of showing his face, he burned with rage as he spiraled out of control. The very game he thought would bring him happiness pulled him deeper into the abyss. Despite his achievements, he still felt broken. Football, he realized, was just a band-aid, a crutch, but he needed it to release his anger. Eventually, he found that he enjoyed the violence, but he felt nothing. He saw nothing, just darkness. Yet as the glue of his young family, reggie had to keep it together, pushing it all down, compressing it like a spring, harder and harder. Finally it all exploded. Reggie couldn't run anymore. The weight of his dark secret had finally crushed him. And so one day, reggie did something that seemed unthinkable to everyone around him. He walked away from football. Suicidal and broken, he knew he needed help. He started weekly therapy, but it wasn't enough. So he checked himself into a 30-day inpatient treatment program and began the long climb out. His kids helped ground him, reminding him of what really matters and why he's here Now. on the other side, reggie has realized that he is good enough. He has embraced himself his past, his present and his future, whatever it may hold. He doesn't hide himself anymore. The tears, the fears, the imperfections, it's all there. The helmet has come off for good. Perhaps the most fitting milestone at this point in Reggie's life can be summarized with the last words from the songs Surviving the Times by Nas. What would I do if I could reach inside of me and to know how it feels to say I like what I see. Reggie, welcome to the show, brother.
Reggie Walker: 3:18
I'm glad that I did not send you out my bio ahead of time and that you got a chance to like sit with that, because everything that you said is exactly what I wish everyone would say to a T And you nailed it and that means a lot to me, because I don't like doing interviews, I don't like speaking a lot about a lot of stuff that's happened, but, like how you put it, it was amazing and I'm grateful for that, thank you, thank you so much.
Max Chopovsky: 4:00
Thanks, man, it's the least I could do.
Reggie Walker: 4:03
Yeah, i'm glad I'm here and I'm glad that I can talk about myself and hopefully help somebody else.
Max Chopovsky: 4:11
Yeah, definitely I'm glad to have you. You're here to tell us a story. Is there anything that we should know before we get started? Do you want to set the stage at all?
Reggie Walker: 4:21
I think when it comes to the story itself, I think for anybody who is going through a major life change, I think this story is for them, because when you're making a major life change, you're in such a period of just uncomfortability. everything is different and you're doing a lot of different things than you would normally think that you would do, and you don't know if it's the right thing, But I think the story that I have, I think it will help you understand that it's okay. I think that's like the disclaimer.
Max Chopovsky: 4:59
All right, i love it, let's do it.
Reggie Walker: 5:03
Tell me a story. So the one story that kept popping up in my mind was the story about when I saw my daughter make her first goal in soccer. It's important to me because at the time I was dealing with myself, really dealing with myself Like this is who you are, bro, this is who you are. You're not going to run from it, you're not going to cry away from it, there's nothing that you can do. This is who you are. You made a decision to change how you were, but you have to understand that you've done some bad stuff and you got to deal with it And you got to be able to talk about it to the people who you hurt, and I think everything like summed it up with this story. So, woke up, we had my daughter's my oldest daughter's soccer game. It was like at a place that was like 45 minutes from us, so it was a super long drive And where I was at mentally I was basically not even there The problems that I was dealing with, dealing with the childhood abuse and dealing with all the abuse and everything bad that had happened up to that point. I couldn't even consider myself like a human being, where I was looking at things like I was just a shell And I went to my kiss cause soccer game because I had to Period white blank like I had to. My wife said you're going to show up, you're going to be there. I didn't want to be there, i didn't want to be around anyone, but she made me go And I go out and I watched my daughter just having so much fun being around her friends and running around And I was just thinking the whole time, man, i need to get back to that. But then something happened. So she stole a ball from a girl And she went from one end of the field to the other end And she did some of the most incredible things like I've ever seen. Like she jumped over a girl, like a girl tried to steal a ball and she dove in front of her. She kicked the ball over her and jumped over And I was like, oh my god, like what, ronaldinho, like whoa, and she jumped over there girl. And then there was like three girls in front of her. She mixed tape all three of them up and then gone around them And then she kicked the ball into the goal And she did like a run around the goal And then she looked right at me and she was the happiest I've ever seen her And it crushed me, like it crushed me. It really crushed me because I had nothing. I had nothing, nothing inside, nothing to give to her. She just did something incredible And I had nothing to give her. But she looked right at me and she said dad, i did it And I was like you're amazing, baby. I had nothing to give her But I was so happy for her And I couldn't tell her. I don't know why I couldn't tell her, but I couldn't because I was hurting so bad. What was me? No one cares, i'm hurt, i'm bad, all of that. And we were driving back after the game was over And I was driving And I was driving and I had to pull the car over because I couldn't pick. And the first thing I said out of my mouth was I'm sorry for not being a better dad right now, but I'm so happy that you did this And you're amazing and you're beautiful and you're so smart and you're so capable. I'm sorry, i couldn't say anything. And she looked at me and she said dad, i think you're trying, it's OK. I know you love me, it's OK. And that story they got me to a treatment center If I couldn't let it happen again. Damn bro, you can't even celebrate your kids' victory, and look what she did. She did some of the most amazing things you've ever seen in any athlete do. You can't even say you're amazing because you can't even get out of your own stuff to celebrate with your daughter. And then I was on a plane to a treatment center three days later And I don't regret any of it. I'm just surprised that I was able to do it. I'm just surprised that my daughter saw me. She saw me And she didn't. She accepted me. She accepted broken me And I never thought anybody would do that And I'm grateful Because I've never had that before. I never had anyone just like accept me for what I was, and he was my own daughter who showed me the first time And it broke me in the best way possible, because I finally could deal with my own stuff And know that at the end of this there's somebody who's waiting for me, who's waiting for me to be better. I'm not a perfect man. I will never be a perfect man. I try to be a great man all the time And I fail constantly, just like everyone else, because being a great man is you just are who you are. But she showed me for the first time ever in my life that it's worth it to try to be better. And I'm so grateful for that, because I've never had it. I was always the person who was never enough. But then, looking at my daughter, and she told me you're enough. And I was like I'm the worst state I've ever been, like ever. Like I'm terrible right now, like I'm a terrible dad, like I'm terrible. And you told me to my face, dad, you're enough. It doesn't take much to make your life better. It doesn't take much to change it. It doesn't take a lot, it's one thing. All you need is one thing, one little thing, not a big thing, not a massive thing, just one little thing. And the thing that I needed that made me change is when she kicked that goal and she looked at me She's in there. She said so much with that look, she was like I did it. I was like I'm going to do this because I was out there working with her and help her kick the ball and all that Like, even though I felt suicidal and I was in bad shape, but I did make a point to go out there with her and she said I did it. And she looked at me and she smiled And I'll never forget It doesn't take much. So, like the people who are like hurting right now and going through bad stuff, the thing that they have to realize is you don't need a miracle. One little thing, one little tiny thing can make, can change your whole life if you hold on to it. And I think God or the universe, or whatever people believe is God or whatever it is. I'm just glad I latched on to that, because if I didn't, i wouldn't be here right now.
Max Chopovsky: 14:39
Man, thank you for sharing that. As you're talking, i can just picture you on a field and there is a wall of linebackers And at every play you just go at them harder and harder and harder and they just push you back and you end up where you started And at one point you just turn around and instead of that wall of pads and helmets, you just see one little girl and it's her, and you realize that's the way to go. It's not forward, it's back. What, to me, stands out about that story is kids don't care Like this is what I've learned. I have three girls. They don't care how much you have where you go, how many toys they have, even though they'll keep asking for new toys. No, that matters to them. All that matters to them is that you are there, not just physically, but mentally there. And we as dads can have this story playing in our heads about how it's not enough, we're not enough. Are they going to have a good childhood? And as that's happening, they're sitting there looking at you being like dad it's your turn, we're playing checkers. It's your turn to go. And I find that happening to myself sometimes.
Reggie Walker: 16:10
No, you're right. Yeah, kids don't care. You're like you're my dad, you're great, you're my dad, you're awesome. And you're looking at yourself like I'm terrible, i'm a horrible person, i failed, i'm a failure, i'm not doing anything right. Your kids are just like they don't care about any of that. They don't care about any of it.
Max Chopovsky: 16:33
We just want you to be here. The interesting thing is that you pulled over and you said I'm sorry. That is the most important thing, because most people would say it is what it is. I'm going to move on, i'm going to get back in my head, but you turned off the road. I've always looked at it as there's three perspectives when it comes to my kids, three perspectives on the connection we have together. The first is their perspective. So how are they going to remember their childhood? Are they going to remember that I was present, that I was at home, that we spent time together? The second is my perspective. How am I going to remember their childhood? Am I going to remember that I gave it all that I could, that I was imperfect but present as much as I could be? And then there is my wife's perspective. So how does she see it? Does she see that I am being a good father? And those perspectives can be of the same thing, but they can be drastically different. My kids could look at their childhood and be like I had a fantastic childhood. He was always at home and he was always there for us. I could look back on it and be like, damn, i could have done so much better, which would be equally tragic.
Reggie Walker: 17:53
Yeah, I was struggling the whole time, but I was dying the whole time.
Max Chopovsky: 17:58
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. I mean, ultimately it's like you needed that. You needed her to tell you that, because that is what it required to get you into treatment. But it is powerful In the connections we have with our kids. They can save us, like it did with you. So let me ask you this, as you think about that story and I know you've thought about it quite a bit what is the moral of that story for you?
Reggie Walker: 18:26
That it doesn't take much to change your life. It doesn't take much. You don't need a miracle, you don't need something that you think you need. All of us think like I'm feeling sad, i'm hurt, i need this to happen for me to change. No, you don't. You need a little thing, very little, a smile from your kid, like a ladybug falling on your hand or whatever it is. It doesn't take much. And I was at that spot where I was like I didn't know what was going to fix anything. I was the lowest I've ever been Mentally. I didn't think I was going to survive it. I thought I was going to die. I knew that there was nothing for me. That's how I felt. And then seeing my kids, my daughter, smile, it changed everything. It was just one thing, and that's the thing that I understand when it comes to talking and doing interviews, like I told you before, i don't like doing interviews. I don't like talking. I'd rather be silent most of the time. I feel like I'm pretty close to off at this point in time in life, but I only talk about the things that I care about that I feel will help other people. And if it does, it does. If it doesn't. It doesn't Either way. That's the only thing I'm going to talk about. I don't care about anything else. I don't think I'm not in this for money or fame or notoriety. I don't care if I have 100,000 Instagram followers. To be honest, i'll go on Instagram to look at funny stuff that memes, that's it. Like I don't. That's not where I'm at. I just know that when it comes to healing, you don't need a lot. It's just one little thing can change everything. And if you're hurting right now, just hold out for that one little thing. Just hold out. It will come. And it won't be a miracle. It'll be something simple and stupid that you will say to your back of mind, like I mean a butterfly, i saw a butterfly floating around and that made me think about something different. Or I helped somebody, i gave a dollar to a homeless person, or whatever. It doesn't take much. The thing I just want you to realize is life will get better. It will if you try, if you stick with it. Even with feeling that way, feeling with like no one's there, you have no help, no one cares One little thing could take you out of it. That's why I even talk. I wouldn't talk otherwise.
Max Chopovsky: 21:25
Well. So it's crazy, because it's not like she was showing you any more love than she was, than she had been before. You just weren't ready to accept the message. You weren't ready to receive the message, and at that point you were kind of at your lowest, and so your veneer was sort of cracked right And the message finally got through to you.
Reggie Walker: 21:47
Maybe. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I didn't need it to. She smiled And she revved And my wife was looking at me. She was like are you okay? I was like yeah, i'm fine, i'm fine. And I just broke down the corridor to the side door. I just broke down Because everything up to that moment was worth it Everything Trying to figure myself out, going to therapy, feeling a bush of times and trying to do something different. That sideline saved my life. And then, when I pulled the car over because I had to sit in it, and then I pulled the car over and my kids were like dad, is everything okay? I was like yeah, i'm fine, i'm fine, i'm fine. They're like why are you crying? I was just like because I'm so happy And I'm so grateful And I've never felt this way And I feel this way because of you guys. And it doesn't take much, it doesn't. You don't need a miracle, you just need one smile on your face. Just something, one little thing could help you. Just hold it out for that. That's right, and you're we're okay.
Max Chopovsky: 23:22
Why did you choose that as a story to tell?
Reggie Walker: 23:26
There's no more important story for me to tell. Nothing's more important than that one. That's the one. Yeah, because people think that For me to get from point A to point B, I need something crazy to happen. No, you don't. No, you don't. You can change your whole life overnight and you could take one little thing. I know that there's a lot of people out there struggling and they think that they need that. No, you don't.
Max Chopovsky: 23:58
No, you don't Well, they just think they're so far gone that it has to be something monumental. What I think what people don't realize, is you don't have to climb all the way out on your first step. You just have to take a first step and that'll give you momentum, and then you stay with it.
Reggie Walker: 24:17
Yeah, but the thing is, when you are down, you're depressed and you're hurt. The thing that happens to you is you become emotionless. Things don't show up on the radar like they used to. Things that hurt you in the past don't hurt you like they used to. You become very strong in that way, but you don't realize it because you're so hurt. You're just solely focused on your own hurt. You're not focused on damn, i was hurt and all this stuff happened and I got through it and I managed to do my job and do everything. I need to even pay attention to it. You do these things all the time. The thing that's really important to understand is life does hurt sometimes, but just because it hurts doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Sometimes you need to feel that hurt. The thing is in my life is I had to feel it because I ran from it all the first 27 years of my life, i ran for myself. I ran from every part of myself. The thing that made it worse was I was so good at accomplishing any goal that I wanted to do while still running for myself. You're right, and I became very good at that. It wasn't until I got smacked in the face with what actually means, what actually matters in life being around people that matter. Being carry your kids and making sure your kids are okay. Being with somebody that loves you unconditionally. Loving someone else unconditionally. Going through that experience of loving someone unconditionally even though they're going to fuck up a million times. Excuse my language, but that's just what it is. No one's perfect. We're all going to make mistakes. It is what it is. When you decide to marry someone, you're marrying an imperfect person and they will always be imperfect, but you choose to love them anyway, and that's a very difficult process to undergo. And the thing is you think you need a miracle through all this stuff. No, you don't. You don't need any miracle, brother, sister, anybody. You don't need a miracle. You just need to understand. If I fight long enough, i will get clarity and it will happen. That's the thing that I understand about everything. If you fight long enough, you'll get clarity. You'll figure it out. You'll figure it out like whether, like this is how I can get better in this situation and fix it, or maybe I should stop. Maybe you'll get clarity at some point. But you just got to do it And you can't do it from your house sidelines on the couch. Like you got to do life. Like you got to do life.
Max Chopovsky: 27:34
Yep, you got to do the work. You know it's interesting. There is an Eastern philosophy and Sebudist approach to life and it separates life into various stages And the sort of gist of it is you spend the first part of your life accumulating. You accumulate knowledge, but you also accumulate achievements, money, experiences, things right. And the second part of your life you have to evolve to shed a lot of those things and detach yourself from the meaning of certain attachments, the meaning of certain achievements and things that you, in your prior stage, found meaningful, right. And so it's interesting when you talk about you don't do a lot of interviews, you don't really you could sit at home and do your thing if you had the choice, and that is a mark of evolution, that's a mark of maturity, because those people that I think stay attached to some of their previous achievements and insist on staying attached to some of the material things that they were able to get through success earlier in life, they don't. They're the ones that have midlife crises and kind of hang on to the glory of their youth, watching the tape back right, the high school tape, watching that back over and over again, realizing that actually, without realizing that actually in the meantime, they're missing out on this stage of life, on the stage of life where you can kind of slow down a little bit and focus on fewer things and not spread yourself so thin. I'm curious about storytelling. You've told a lot of stories. You also heard a lot of stories, so what makes for a good story
Reggie Walker: 29:37
Relatability. That's the bridge. Can I relate to you? If I can't relate to you, you're not telling a great story. That's the thing I had to realize. You know, i'm a military brat and I've been in situations where I was a majority, like everyone around me is black, or a minority. Where I'm in a town where there's one other black family and I know the guy, we go to school together, they have two kids, and then the only Asian family in the whole town owns a Chinese food restaurant. But like that's it. That's it Like in everyone else around us is white. Not saying it's a bad thing, it's just like the thing that I understood going through a lot of these situations. And then I moved out to Sacramento, which was like the most culturally diverse city in America. After doing that, You realize that if you want to make friends as a kid, how you can make friends really easy is like, if I'm saying something, make it as relatable as the person that I'm talking to. Like, if I can make it in that sense, they will listen to what I'm saying, but if not, it's going to go over their head Or it could be a good thing or it could be a bad thing. But then now you're playing percentages. But if you can say, if you can say something that's going to relate to them, they will vibe with you, they will understand it. They can even talk about some of the things that they will even open up to you, if you can form that bridge. It's all about forming that bridge of relatability. The thing is about stories, right? People don't understand that. For instance, like you didn't play NFL, like Max, you didn't play NFL, but I can relate enough of my story to you for you to understand how it was for me to play NFL and for other people to like play NFL. And then you can sit there and think about it and be like, oh, that was just like something that I went through. Now we have communication, but I need to be able to communicate that to you first, and that's a skill. Some people have it, naturally. But being able to relate to someone else, that's a skill. Most people just don't got that. Like you got to figure it out how to do that.
Max Chopovsky: 32:12
So I mean, knowing your audience is key. You got to know your audience and connection. when you can connect with somebody as you're telling them a story, that creates engagement And that's how people keep listening to you as you're telling the story. Now let me ask you this does every story have to have a moral?
Reggie Walker: 32:32
No, not at all, Because you can use a story to rule a point. You can use a story to communicate something that you couldn't communicate in. You couldn't communicate otherwise. You could use a story for entertainment. But the thing is about stories is they're beautiful because they help to get out so much that you want to say in a way in which you want to say it in a world in which other people understand things completely different. But if you can say it in a story, it helps form that bridge. So not necessarily there has to be a point. Sometimes you could just be like man, I just want to tell a story for someone to like me for this reason. Or I just want someone to just kind of understand this feeling for this reason. Or sometimes I just want you know, we're just all hanging out Like, let's just have fun. I just want to tell a story for make people feel better, Totally. It doesn't have to have a moral. It doesn't have to have a moral.
Max Chopovsky: 33:43
What's one of your favorite books that gets storytelling right?
Reggie Walker: 33:49
The Alchemist Oh great. One Turns down the Alchemist easily because Paul Collow put so many huge concepts of life in very easy to understand ways And how he told it was like he just told a story. Like he just told a story about some kid that you didn't even know his name. He never said his name And it was beautiful. How on earth can you explain so many major concepts of life with a man character that you don't even know his name? And it's so easy for anyone, no matter of like any intelligence level, to understand. Like this is very easy to understand. It was magnificent. I thought I think the Alchemist is one of the best works of art ever done And I will fight people on that one because it was like how much thought did it take? Because I've written a book. Like I've written a book. It sucks, like it's hard, it's very difficult, and I've written a college accredited course too. Like my course got picked up by Forbes and everything right. But even with that, i would look back at the Alchemist and I was like I don't know how you did it. I don't know how you did it. How did you do that? It was a masterpiece.
Max Chopovsky: 35:30
It's great advice for the kids, right Like Macklemore even talks about it in a song. I recommend that you read the Alchemist listen to your teachers, but cheat in calculus right. Tell the truth regardless of the consequence. And every day give your mama a compliment.
Reggie Walker: 35:43
Right.
Max Chopovsky: 35:47
Did we literally just listen to that song yesterday, Like his? yeah, it's absolutely brilliant. So last question for your edge If you could say one thing to your 20 year old self, what would it be?
Reggie Walker: 36:03
Stop fighting. You're not an unboxing match. Stop fighting. Accept yourself and love yourself, and you're okay. You don't need a thousand people to love you, you just need one, which is you, and you will be okay. After the fact, i couldn't accept that I needed at that time had to fill thousands of people loving me because I'm bringing football. I needed it. And then I realized that I actually don't even care about this at all. Like, look at yourself, man. Like I was going out to games towards the end, like I didn't even care how I looked, like I would just come out there with whatever. Like I would come out there with the sloppy sleeves and wear the gloves that I wore in practice, that were worn in. Like I didn't even care. But you're like hey Rage, you want these new gloves. I said, no, i don't care. Oh, you want to like, like, like, take this tour at all shot or whatever to make sure you do good for the games. Like, no, i don't even care, i just didn't even care. It took a while for me to realize that the only love I needed for myself which is a crazy thing to say Because I have three kids But even with that, i have to understand, first and foremost, if I love myself, that's the most important thing, because then I can love everyone else. And if I can do that, there's no point. You know, and it took me years to realize that years Live you're still first, so you can love somebody else.
Max Chopovsky: 37:54
You know what, man? Better late than never, it's all that matters, right? Oh well, that does it, reggie Walker. Thank you for being on the show and sharing your story, man.
Reggie Walker: 38:10
No, i thank you And I know that you did like and I respect for me. You didn't say any of this stuff, but I've been going through a lot of hard times right now, like my mom's in a hospital right now. I don't know if I'm even going to fly out today or not. I didn't even know if I was going to do this interview. but I'm just glad that you saved the space for me So I could like get this story out, and if it helps one person, great. I mean, if it doesn't, that's okay too. I'm just grateful for you to keep that space for me. So I'm very appreciative of you, max Like, and I really mean that. So thank you so much, thank you.
Max Chopovsky: 38:47
It's my pleasure, man, if I can run interference for you for 45 minutes and you can have the space to just be and talk. I feel like I've done my job. So again, thank you, and thanks to everyone for listening. for show notes and more, head over to maspodorg. Find us on Apple podcast, spotify, amazon, wherever you get your podcast on. This was moral of the story. I'm Max Jepofsky. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next time.?