34: Jake Nickell
“And he tells us that there is a tradition in Sweden where when you meet for the first time, every goes around the room and tells a mini version of their life story.”
From the Episode
About Jake
Jake is an unlikely rebel. Moving around as an army brat, he was on the quiet side and didn’t get a chance to put down roots. Until, that is, he found himself, at 20 years old, in a tiny apartment in Chicago’s Buena Park neighborhood.
This was when the idea for Threadless slowly made its way into his universe.
He was splitting his time between his graphic design classes at the Illinois Institute of Art and part time gigs building ecommerce websites. His girlfriend Shonda was away at Purdue University and he spent the little spare time he had on an online forum for digital artists called Dreamless.
After winning a Dreamless virtual t-shirt design competition, Jake was disappointed that no t-shirt was actually produced. So he and fellow Dreamless enthusiast Jacob DeHart started their own contest with $1000 of their own money, and this time, the winning designs were made. And not only that, they sold out.
It would take another two years before “the two Jakes,” as they came to be known, would drop out of college to turn Threadless into a real company. And the rest, as they say, is history.
For over 20 years, Threadless has continued to help creators, well, create, providing a platform, tools, and most importantly, a community.
Meanwhile, Jake continues to be a rebel, letting his intuition lead the way. Where many might say that Threadless pioneered crowdsourcing, he just says “we make cool things with our friends.”
Threadless went remote-first during the pandemic, with flexibility to work from anywhere. So when he’s not working, Jake and his now-wife Shondi and their kids Arli and Dash are capitalizing on the great outdoors in a big way, enjoying every moment.
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Max Chopovsky: 0:02
This is Moral of the Story interesting people telling their favorite short stories and then breaking them down to understand what makes them so good. I'm your host, Max Chopovsky. Today's guest is Jake Nickell, the founder and CEO of clothing company Threadless. Jake is an unlikely rebel, moving around as an Army brat. he was on the quiet side and didn't get a chance to put down roots Until, that is, he found himself at 20 years old in a tiny apartment in Chicago's Buena Park neighborhood. This was when the idea for Threadless slowly made its way into his universe. He was splitting his time between his graphic design classes at the Illinois Institute of Art and part-time gigs building e-commerce websites. His girlfriend, shonda, was away at Purdue University and he spent the little spare time he had on an online forum for digital artists called Dreamless. After winning a Dreamless virtual t-shirt design competition, jake was disappointed that no t-shirt was actually produced. So he and fellow Dreamless enthusiasts, jacob DeHart, started their own contest with $1,000 of their own money, and this time the winning designs were made. Not only that, they sold out. It would take another two years before the two jakes, as they came to be known, would drop out of college to turn Threadless into a real company and the rest, as they say, is history. For over 20 years, threadless has continued to help creators well create, providing a platform, tools and, most importantly, a community. Meanwhile, jake continues to be a rebel, letting his intuition lead the way. Where many might say that Threadless pioneered crowdsourcing, he just says we make cool stuff with our friends. Threadless went remote first during the pandemic, with flexibility to work from anywhere. so when he's not working, jake and his now wife Shondi and their kids, arley and Dash, are capitalizing on the great outdoors in a big way, enjoying every moment. Jake, welcome to the show man.
Jake Nickell: 2:02
Thanks for having me, maxwell. That was a great bio, thank you.
Max Chopovsky: 2:07
Thanks, man. So you're here to tell us a story. Is there anything that we should know before we get in? Do you want to set the stage?
Jake Nickell: 2:15
So at the time and this isn't a story about Threadless, but Threadless is in it So we were starting to do a lot of licensing deals at the time with pop culture studios so that our artist community could actually design officially licensed merch for major pop culture properties. And this was in 2012, so over 10 years ago now we were trying to get the Minecraft license, and so Minecraft came out in late 2011, and nobody had the license for t-shirts And we saw that the game was going to be huge and was gaining a ton of popularity. So our head of partnerships at the time, wilson Fong, and we flew to their headquarters in Stockholm, sweden, to try to see if we could make a deal happen, and so that's kind of like the setup for the story.
Max Chopovsky: 2:58
I love it. I love it. Sounds like a cliffhanger, so let's get into it. Tell me a story.
Jake Nickell: 3:06
Right on, yeah. So we flew out to Stockholm just to see if we could make this Minecraft deal happen. And while we were there, we were looking up other companies headquartered there and we saw H&M was there. So we were able to arrange a meeting with H&M to try to see if we could do a deal with them as well. So on the first day we had the H&M meeting and the second day was the Minecraft meeting. And so we walk into H&M headquarters in our meeting with the vice president of e-commerce there And he tells us that there's a tradition in Sweden where, when you meet for the first time, everybody goes around the room and spends like two to five minutes telling their life story, like a mini version of their life story. And, as an introvert, i've always had trouble in meetings with small talk and getting to know new people when doing business. And after doing this with this guy, this was awesome for that, because everything was real. We all let down our guard and connected with each other on a really real level and got to know each other as people before we even talked a bit of business. And it wasn't small talk, it was real deep conversation about getting to know our stories as people, and so that really stuck with me. And then Wilson and I went out to dinner that night, and we're talking about how we're going to do the Minecraft meeting, and we thought, oh well, i guess in Sweden this is what they do, so we're going to have to prepare for that. So, yeah, the next day, we met with five people at Minecraft, including the CEO and the game's original creator and their head of operations, and it was like the crew that we needed to be talking to there, and so we start the meeting off and we say we heard about your tradition here in Sweden about the life stories, and, of course, they were like yeah, that's not a thing. I've never heard of that before in my life. Anyway, they went for it, though, and we all did that. So, with the five of them and the two of us, that's seven of us going around, and it literally took like two and a half hours before we actually even talked a second of business. It was incredible the stories that we learned from these people. I mean the original creator, notch. He created the game while working at another job, and when it started to take off, he knew he had to leave and put full-time effort into this game And he actually hired his boss at the company to be the CEO of Minecraft so that he could continue making the game and he wouldn't have to worry about running the company. And so they both quit And then the CEO, who was at the meeting, told this amazing story about how he delivered his baby on their kitchen floor. So just before we even started talking about business, we had known each other's life stories and it was an incredible way to basically structure the meeting. We ended up talking for hours and then we had dinner that evening and it was all filled with just callbacks to that moment and anecdotes from that exercise and stuff and became the main topic of conversation. And again, like for me being an introvert, that really sucks at just small talk like that. I found it to be invaluable And I really feel that because we had that conversation, that's why we were able to get the deal done. And so I've carried this thing with me for years and I use it, i'd say, semi-frequently but still sparingly. It kind of has to be like the right setting. But I use it not just in business but in my personal life and, you know, with potential partners. We've even done it internally with our team. And then, like another example of recently I think it was in February of this year I went on a snowboarding trip with five people And we all kind of like some of us knew each other but not everybody knew each other And on the first night we did this during dinner. We did the life story in five minutes exercise And it just like that became. Everybody knew so much about each other. For the rest of the trip It was, you know, six day trip and just allowed everybody to connect right off the bat on a really deep level. So it's a super simple thing And I mean in the moment. You know, 11 years ago when this happened, it was like a huge game changer for me And it's really powerful. So I just wanted to share it with everyone as a tool that you could maybe use sometime. I have a saying that. I think you actually brought it up in my bio where I like to say make friends and then make things with your friends, And I think it's kind of cool to start with that. First you know like really get to know people and then dig in, And that's something that I've learned, that stuck with me And I got a lot out of it for sure.
Max Chopovsky: 7:55
Wow. So I got to ask you got the Minecraft deal? did you get the H&M deal?
Jake Nickell: 8:02
No, we did not do the H&M deal. In fact, i think the guy that we met with was like from Canada or something, not even from Sweden, where it said this was the tradition, and then he was gone within like six months of us having that meeting.
Max Chopovsky: 8:17
But yeah, no H&M deal, but they gave you something so much more valuable. Yeah absolutely Yeah. Which is that tradition? Do you think the Minecraft deal would have happened had you not gone into the story of your lives?
Jake Nickell: 8:33
I kind of don't actually. Yeah, because we were a pretty small player, you know, in merchandise licensing at the time And they ended up awarding it to two companies We were one of them And the other one was much larger. But I think because of our artist community angle, where it's not just taking style guide art right out of the box and slapping it on a t-shirt, it's artists reinterpreting the property and their style and stuff, They saw that we had like a unique twist on it. But I don't know. I think what the life story thing did is just for the years that we had that deal in place too, it was always just doing business together with friends And it wasn't like yeah, i mean just the relationship along the whole way felt like we knew each other from the beginning, you know.
Max Chopovsky: 9:18
Totally. I mean connection with other humans is both incredibly critical to lifespan and longevity and also really hard, like naturally organically, for certain things to come out about yourself, especially for an introvert. It would just take forever right, and I feel like what this does is it forces, that it sort of front loads it to the beginning of the conversation And that creates for a much richer dialogue but also, more importantly, for that connection.
Jake Nickell: 9:59
Yeah, for sure. I think it's interesting too when you think about, on the spot, being asked to tell your life story in five minutes with no time to prepare anything. What moments you pull from. That are probably some of the most interesting moments of a person's life, where all of a sudden that's being shared the first time you get to know somebody. I mean, it's rare that this is an appropriate thing to do. It wouldn't do it in every meeting. It's kind of like the more bigger moments, but it then just really grounds everything and humanity at a level that I don't know. Just yes, yeah, we're all just trying to do cool stuff together And I think that when you only address the surface of the problem in front of you, you're missing so much of what could come from it if you dug a little bit deeper?
Max Chopovsky: 10:55
I guess 100%. It's interesting. There is a massive difference. There are many, but there's a massive difference between Western and Eastern business cultures. The Western business culture is we're going to sit down, talk about the weather the weekend for a couple of minutes, completely superficial, and then we got to get down to business. We have a hard stop in 28 minutes. In the Eastern culture, in Japan, for example, they actually spend the first part of the meeting talking to each other on a personal level, getting to know each other. Obviously, these are meetings with maybe new acquaintances, but that creates a deeper personal connection And I think it helps things more in the long run. I remember when I went to Japan for the first time, we had business cards in the US right, and when you would give somebody a business card you weren't like back in the day, you would exchange business cards. You would give your business card to somebody, they would give theirs to you and you put it straight in your pocket. In Japan, you accept the business cards with both hands. They give it to you with both hands. You accept it with both hands, you bow, you look at it like, really take it in, and then you put it away. I think there is so much more of an emphasis And this is in Japan, i think it goes for Europe as well on living a more connected life, a more intentionally connected life, and I just think that that's missing from the US.
Jake Nickell: 12:38
Yeah, there's a real level of respect and just being seen when you're in a meeting like that. I mean when we acquired Bucket Feet, roger, who I think you had on your show he and I went to China and visited the factory where the Bucket Feet are made And yeah, i got to experience that. I mean the way that they welcomed us in and took us to meals and shows. We went to Shaolin Temple and they showed us a show there. It was incredible. But yeah, I feel like that is the default is in America And you're just checking the task off the list and not really digging into who we all are and what our goals are as people.
Max Chopovsky: 13:20
Totally, which is a waste. What is the moral of that story?
Jake Nickell: 13:27
I guess it could vary from person to person what you take away. I think for me it's about understanding the power that really connecting as humans has. I don't want to say this is all about business connection because, like I said, i use this in my personal life too, but the power of really getting to know people, listening, being vulnerable and telling your own story. It is interesting too. I've done this a bunch of times and my story isn't always the same And I find that some of the stuff that resonates with people has changed over time and I kind of dig in on those and I reshare the stuff that resonates And I think I don't know, i like to think about the listener of the story just as much as being a storyteller, and so I try to use my own story as a way to connect with others. I mean the moral. It's a tough one, i think it's really just simply it's important to connect on a human level with other people and find moments that you can do that.
Max Chopovsky: 14:34
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I know you have a lot of stories that you could have told. Why did you choose this particular one?
Jake Nickell: 14:42
One thing that happened right away is I was like, oh, this is kind of meta because it's a story about storytelling And I also just wanted something that was like something that the listener could take away and use in their own lives. So I thought this was a cool device to share and it's been really helpful to form relationships with other people. So I'm hoping that that can be shared and used by other people.
Max Chopovsky: 15:06
I'm going to use that for sure. I tend to be an overshare and I talk a lot, so the five minute constraint is brilliant, which, by the way, makes me wonder. you said you spent two and a half hours going through this with the Minecraft team. Did people just blow right past that five minute barrier and you just kept going?
Jake Nickell: 15:32
That happens a lot. But also people just have questions, you know, and you end up at the end of the five minutes. you don't just move to the next one Afterwards. there's good 15 minutes of conversations about each story. I remember we did it with eight people, one set dinner, and we were at that dinner table for four hours And we didn't talk about anything else other than just going around the room one by one doing this And anything goes right.
Max Chopovsky: 15:59
So it could be something tragic that happened in their families. They share that. That's sort of the ground rule, right. Nothing is off limits.
Jake Nickell: 16:07
Yeah, if they're comfortable too, but you also don't want to push people too hard to tell stories that they're not wanting to share in that audience or that moment.
Max Chopovsky: 16:16
Yeah, yeah, you don't want to go maybe too deep on that first one. So if we're talking about stories, about stories, what do you think makes the story you told so?
Jake Nickell: 16:30
good.
Max Chopovsky: 16:30
In other words, what do you think makes it work from a structural perspective?
Jake Nickell: 16:35
I think it's fun when there's a company that we're all familiar with Minecraft and learning about how that company got started and stuff and just the serendipity of traveling out there just to try to do a deal is kind of fun to share. I think having a nice takeaway is nice with the story, with something that you can then use later. I think the life story part of it by itself is kind of. I guess I didn't really tell too many details about what life stories have been, but it's just really interesting when the moments that people choose to highlight when they do tell the story in five minutes like that, There's the story within the story and then the story itself And I think story in itself had a nice ending to where the deal got done because of it. But I don't know it was just kind of a fun moment to share.
Max Chopovsky: 17:30
Definitely Now. you've told a lot of stories, but you've also heard a lot of stories. So if you were to sort of step into your academic shoes, what do you think makes for a good story?
Jake Nickell: 17:47
I mean for me personally. I like a story that's either really entertaining, just pure entertainment, or a story that I can learn something from. When it comes to movies, i tend to like movies that are not usually critically acclaimed. To be honest, i love the Fast and Furious series, really crummy movies like Beverly Hills, chihuahua, i just love just because it's so entertaining And, yeah, there's not necessarily a takeaway from it, but it's just fun. But then, when it comes to reading, i mostly read nonfiction, business books that I'm trying to learn from, and it's kind of a bonus point if a story can accomplish both be entertaining and you can learn from it. And then, of course, i don't know, i always like I think we all like stories that we can relate to or see ourselves in somehow. But yeah, that's pretty much it from what I want out of a story entertainment or learn.
Max Chopovsky: 18:48
Okay, so let me ask you this then Does every story have to have a moral? And if it doesn't, does it still qualify as a good story?
Jake Nickell: 18:57
CB. I absolutely do not think every story has to have a moral. I think also, though, that morals can be different for people. It's almost like song lyrics when you're listening to a song, the way that it resonates with you might be different than how it might resonate with somebody else. You might hear the same lyric in a different way on how it's affecting you in your life. Whatever you're dealing with in that moment could even affect you when you hear it again 10 years later, completely differently. I think stories can work similarly where there might be a moment of it that for one person, that part of the story didn't even matter, but the other person, that part of the story was the most important part, and I'm sure there's morals that get lost, some that storyteller didn't even intend to integrate into their stories, and so, yeah, i don't think you have to have one, but it is nice when they are found by the listener.
Max Chopovsky: 19:52
CB Totally. I want to go back to the story for a second because I thought of another question. As an introvert, you observe intensely, i feel, and you probably also spend a lot of time in your head. So have you ever gotten nervous about sharing your life story, even the condensed version, and maybe being afraid that you won't find a connection based on your life story with somebody there?
Jake Nickell: 20:30
Yeah, i mean, sometimes it doesn't land as well And sometimes when I'm hearing like if I don't go first and I'm hearing somebody else's story, i'm trying to figure out ways to pull pieces of their story and integrate it in a way that kind of like creates connection, you know, like shared experiences that we may have had or like places that we went to or activities that we've done or something. So I don't know, my background is in like user experience, so I'm always kind of like empathetic to the user, the listener. So that's really important to me, i guess, is trying. The purpose, the whole purpose of the thing is to create connections. So I'm not trying to just push my story in a way that may not resonate. I'm trying to use it as a way to connect.
Max Chopovsky: 21:18
Totally, which has to make it even more nerve wracking when you're the one that goes first.
Jake Nickell: 21:23
Yeah, and I do find I usually I probably do go first most of the time because just sets the stage for how, like some people are unsure whether they should do it or not. Oh, one thing I left out is so Wilson, who I did this with. He was on that snowboarding trip earlier this year So we've kept. He doesn't work at Threadless anymore. He's been gone for maybe six, seven years But we keep in touch and we go on snowboarding trips every year And so doing it with him he got he went first because we both knew how to do it. So that was kind of nice. It's nice when I don't go first.
Max Chopovsky: 22:00
Yeah, totally, I love that. Now let's talk about storytelling in and of itself. How do you use storytelling in your own life? And let's just do personal life. So how do you storytelling in your personal life?
Jake Nickell: 22:15
I have two kids, 13 and 15. And I definitely find myself telling them a lot of stories that you know when certain moments are happening in their life and trying to help them, like, overcome challenges in their own life by sharing challenging moments in my life, i think is a great, great way that I use storytelling and personal life. I think, yeah, also connecting with other parents, connecting with teachers and friends. Storytelling is pretty much. yeah, like I said, i'm not much into small talk, so I like to use this when I can to at least, yeah, like you said, not just talk about the weather or oh, i'm so busy. So, yeah, it's a great way to actually connect.
Max Chopovsky: 23:00
Yeah, i like that small talk is overrated, highly, highly overrated, because I think everybody engaged in it knows exactly what it is and recognizes it for what it is, which is just filler right, like if we're going to spend five minutes talking about the weather, why don't we instead, you know, pick something from our lives that would connect us a little more than the fact that we're both busy or that we both dealt with some traffic or something?
Jake Nickell: 23:30
Yeah, and it's nice when you can get to that level where I mean we have partners that we've worked with for over 15 years And when we get on calls you know we're asking about each other's kids and stuff. And it's nice to be able to set up these relationships so that you can have more deep, deeper conversations than just that small talk where it doesn't like, it doesn't feel appropriate to just go straight into the meeting, you have to say oh yeah.
Max Chopovsky: 23:59
But you know the trick and I don't even know if it's a trick but the approach that some other cultures use is, in the US, when somebody asks you how you are, you're like I'm good, good things. But in another country, when somebody asks you how are you doing, then people will tell them how they're doing. You know, i'm okay, struggling with this kind of happy about this, looking forward to this, and that can create some connection, right, because then you can empathize and talk about whatever that thing is. But that just gets me. When I ask somebody how are you, they're like I'm good. I'm like, okay, cool, that's period, right. Somebody asked me how I am And I'll be like well, you know, i just had a delicious sandwich, struggling a little bit with this training I'm doing, and then that sort of opens it up to conversation. But I don't know if people are in too much of a hurry and they don't want to get into the deeper stuff, or if they are just naturally guarded or whatever the case is. But the how are you question doesn't serve much of a purpose if you answer it the way that a lot of people answer it.
Jake Nickell: 25:12
Yeah, no, i've been trying to use that as more of an invitation to actually give a real answer a little bit more too, like actually share something that's going on that might be tougher or good or whatever it is. Yeah, maybe keep it short again, like your answer to how the weather is, but at least say something real.
Max Chopovsky: 25:35
Yeah, or rephrase the question Instead of saying how are you, which they probably expect you could be like how's your day going so far, and then maybe that throws them just enough to be like, well, maybe they're really asking me how my day is going and then they can share something. Yeah, that's a good idea. So we've talked about this a little bit, but what advice would you give to those who want to learn the craft of storytelling?
Jake Nickell: 26:01
I don't claim to be a best storyteller in the world, but I would say from my perspective, empathy is the best thing to think, i guess. think about who's hearing your story and how you can make it interactive for them in a way and bring them into it into the story. And thinking about your listener is probably the most important bit of advice I could give.
Max Chopovsky: 26:24
Totally, totally Know your audience And you've also mentioned that you tweak a story over time. You've tweaked your how you tell your life story, what details you might leave in, leave out, emphasize, de-emphasize, based on your audience. And that's incredibly underrated advice, because if you're just telling the same boilerplate story, it's kind of selling yourself short and not really being respectful towards your audience. I think.
Jake Nickell: 26:53
Yeah, that's what I've learned too. It's almost like being a comedian right, where some jokes don't land And so over time, you tweak it. My tweaks are purely based on the audience whether it's actually something that people want to hear and are resonating with them. So I probably exaggerate a bit. I'm not trying to lie about my story, but probably end up exaggerating about a few things or misremembering things. But yeah, we all have amazing stories to tell, i believe. So figuring out some of those moments and working on them over time, tweaking them, couldn't agree more.
Max Chopovsky: 27:33
What's one of your, or a couple of your, favorite books that get storytelling really right?
Jake Nickell: 27:41
I just don't know if he's still kosher, but Hunter Thompson's books I've read every single book he wrote in. Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, the whole concept of gonzo journalism, where the author really becomes a part of the story and integrates themselves into it and even causing trouble to create a story, i don't know. I kind of like that style of storytelling because it's a fun mixture, too, of fiction and nonfiction, where there's absolutely exaggeration happening in these stories but you're creating it along the way yourself. So, yeah, i really look to books like that that feel like they could be real too. I'm not much into pure fantasy or sci-fi, to be honest. I like stories that feel like they could be real.
Max Chopovsky: 28:40
Have you read Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow?
Jake Nickell: 28:43
Well, I have it on my nightstand actually, But I haven't opened it up quite yet, so I'm planning to read it next. Such a good book.
Max Chopovsky: 28:52
It's not fiction, So I know it might not directly fall into your preferred category, but it's incredible As somebody who is into computers and coding and the whole 90s, growing up in the 90s, sort of that whole era and culture and the 80s as well. It is such a good story. Such a good story And she's a pretty new author. What she's been able to put together and the trajectory and the character arcs is just amazing. So I highly highly recommend it.
Jake Nickell: 29:29
Nice, i will read it soon, so last question.
Max Chopovsky: 29:34
You were 20 when you first got the idea for Threadless. There were so many things as I'm sure you'll look back on it now that you didn't even know that you didn't know, Like the unknown unknowns. Some of them you learn the hard way, Some of them maybe not so much. You'd go through some detours. If you could say one thing to your 20-year-old self, what would that be?
Jake Nickell: 30:04
the first thing to jump to my mind is stay ignorant as long as you can, because all those things that you mentioned are things that, had I known them, i never would have started this company. That's just way overwhelming to know all these challenges along the way. Why would I want to subject myself to all that without knowing any of those things? And sometimes I feel like I wish I could unremember some of those things that I've learned along the way, because you end up, i think a lot of the stuff that you learn along the way, you end up operating more and more from fear of bad things repeating themselves, whereas in the beginning it was kind of like sky's the limit And I don't know. I really feel like some of the stuff that we learn along the way maybe that doesn't work. Maybe would have worked if it was just tweaked a little bit differently. And now that I learned it didn't work, i'm kind of like not going to do that anymore. So, yeah, i kind of I don't want to spoil Ted Lasso, but the very ending moment really struck with me. Yeah, stuck with me about the goal. Well, i shouldn't say.
Max Chopovsky: 31:13
Well, you know, look, it's kind of like the time travel paradox, right? If you go back and you change the past, then that changes the future. And so if you go back and you tell yourself some specific things that could alter the course of the future, then you wouldn't be where you are right now. It's tough.
Jake Nickell: 31:34
Yeah, it's really nice to have that just totally uninformed optimism in your youth, where anything's possible, and I want to keep that with me as long as I can 100%.
Max Chopovsky: 31:46
Have you ever heard the Stanford commencement speech that Steve Jobs gave? I did, yeah. The very last thing he says is stay hungry, stay foolish, right, yes, well done, and that is incredible advice. Naivete to an extent the sort of guileless optimism is sort of underestimating challenges to an extent has helped create some of the world's most valuable companies or concepts or art. It's definitely underrated.
Jake Nickell: 32:24
Yeah, i'm sure there's great counterpoints to that argument, but I firmly believe in it. I mean, i also just feel like education can be a double-edged sword. With that, i didn't go to business school. I dropped out of college And I think, had I got an MBA, i don't think that my business model would have made sense under that dynamic. So Harvard has a case study on threadlists that I get to sit in on the classes every now and then And I try to join a couple of them each year And they basically put in front of these students a problem that we're trying to solve And then the students get to solve it in their way And then at the end sometimes I'll join and share what we actually did And hearing from the students what they would do. It's totally fresh ideas to a problem that I solved in a different way. But it's so inspiring hearing just a fresh viewpoint on the subject with no knowledge of all the background beforehand. There's so much to be learned from ignorance, i guess, or just a complete… Yeah, it's wonderful.
Max Chopovsky: 33:37
I mean, that's why, a lot of the time, especially in the beginning stages of an organization, of a startup, you need that team that has a higher tolerance for risk, a higher tolerance for ambiguity and some of that sort of healthy ignorance, right, because a lot of ideas. If you asked somebody 10 years ago if they would be willing to let strangers pay them some money to stay in their house for a night, they'd be like that sounds ridiculous, right? And fortunately, a handful of guys thought that it was gonna work So well. This was awesome, man. I really appreciate you sharing that story. Jake Nicol, founder and CEO of Threadless. Thank you for being on the show, man.
Jake Nickell: 34:29
Thanks for having me. Yeah, this is great. I love the format here. I want to go back and listen to every episode, because I've listened to a few before coming on here and it's really fantastic hearing what people have to say. I love the structure that you put together.
Max Chopovsky: 34:43
Thanks, man. It's a little bit in line with kind of telling your life story, although it's a specific aspect of your life story. So we go narrower but deeper. And yeah, i appreciate the kind words. Well, that does it for show notes and more. Head over to MossPodorg. Find us on Apple Podcasts, spotify, wherever you get your podcast on. This was Morrill of the Story. I'm Max Chopovsky. Thank you for listening. Talk to you next time.